help with a troublesome customer

[pnagames]

mornign all

we have a troublesome customer that has threaten to sue us for a pre-order that we had to cancel.

to explain the situation, we took a pre-order through ebay for an upcoming collector's edition version of a very popular game.

when we placed the listing we confirmed a pre-order with our supplier. between christmas and new year we increased the pre-order to fulfill our needs.

unfortunately after new year, we were told that the supplier would use an allocation system because of the small numbers of stock that will be received.

we as traders we informed all our customers that we could not fulfill their pre-order and have started refunding the money paid.

we believe everything up to now is legal andour processes are lawfull.

anyway this customer although she had her refund back already she has threaten to take us to court because she thinks we were conducting a fraud

we have explained several times that there has been no fraud/deception in the whole process but she refuses to acknowledge this.

is there a legal blur that we can throw to her? we believe that if she take this to court we will win the case hands down but what everybody else thinks?

[Duncan Rounding]

The main consideration here is possibly the fact that you took the money before actually having the goods. If I was a buyer I would only expect to get charged at the time of the product being sent. I don't believe that that of course constitutes a fraud mind - but might not be quite up to DSR regs.

If it was me I would explain the whole picture in an email, including how the shortage affected many stores not only yours. Try to find some analogy such as the availablity of Sony Playstations or Wii or suchlike that the customer may relate to better.

Also add that if they would like to make a formal complaint that they should do so in writing. I think you 'll find it's purely emotive because they really wanted the game and now can't get it and that it will fade out in time.

[pinbrook]

You may find it beneficial to join the Small Business Federation, they have a legal helpline that would help you to draft a reply. SBF costs approx £100 pa and for me this is worth the peace of mind having access to a legal helpline provides.

The important thing is not to say anything to the customer until you have talked it over with someone knowledgeable.

As Duncan says give her a short amount of time to cool down, and wait to see if she follows it up with a written formal complaint.

[pnagames]

Thanks to both for your quick replies.

Jo, we have been thinking for the FBS for a long time (we could not find £100 to fork out really). but it seems that we will have to this time just to get the legal advice that we need to deal with annoying customers like this one.

Duncan, if it was our website we would not charge the card untill we have send the product. the problem with ebay is that we have to require immediate payment since in the past we have ended up selling the items but the customer never paying for it and we had to pay ebay the listing costs anway.

we have explained the situation to the customer as much as we can. as you suggested we will stop communication with the customer. if she want to take us to court let it be. we have done what we think is lawfull and we already have provided her with a FULL refund of the money.

thanks again for your quick replies to my stressfull times.

panagiotis

[pinbrook]

we have explained the situation to the customer as much as we can. as you suggested we will stop communication with the customer. if she want to take us to court let it be. we have done what we think is lawfull and we already have provided her with a FULL refund of the money.

It is very easy in these situations to continue dialog with a customer and enflame an already emotive situation. Best to do as you are, sit back now and see what their next step is. I think the fact that they have accepted the refund holds you in good stead.

It may be worth pouring over the small print with ebay terms and conditions - to put your mind at rest rather that hit your customer with it.

Its one of the things i have learnt over the past years in business is knowing when to stop and just let things take their course.

The main reason I joined FSB was knowing I'd be able to use them for legal advise. For me thats worth £100 pa. However in a few months time I'm going to revisit the whole banking/cc issue for my business when I shall look at their offerings first and maybe the potential savings will make a dent in their annual fee.

Who knows one day I may turn up at one of their monthly get togethers and do some networking. (Social not wired or wireless)

[george]

You have to accept the risks when offering a pre-order service such is this. That customer may well not have ordered from you if they'd known there was a risk of you not supplying, however small the risk was. Your customers `deal` is between you and them, you have failed to supply something that they've paid for basically. When they placed that order with you they stopped looking for said item.

What would I do? I'd try and source the item for them (even at a loss), that may well repair burnt bridges. They may well mention you on a forum or something as being a bad egg supplier so I'd do my best to prevent that.

You took a pre-order through eBay? How does that work then? Surely you cannot sell goods on an auction site that you do not already have in stock? But, as its an auction sale, as opposed to an online sale, that may invalidate the dsr regs?

[fleetwood]

We offer some items on pre-order (with payment at time of order).
This is to cover items that we would not normally carry as part of our stock, and that have to be ordered months ahead of release date, and are firm sale only from the supplier.
We explicitly state:
a) that the items have not yet been relaesed
b) that any release date given is tentative
c) that payment is taken at the time of order
d) that payment does not guarantee supply, as some items are allocated (and sometimes never even released!).

It is an uncomfortable situation, but I believe it does stay within trading standards guidelines as a 'special order'.
The nearest comparison is with tickets for concerts, where payment is taken (over the web) for an event in the future, which is never guaranteed to actually go ahead, and where money is taken well up front (little britain tickets where sold almost a year in advance, with payment at time of order).

The best that you can do is
a) apologise
b) explain the situation
c) refund in full

Some customers will never be apeased by any explanation or offer of resolve, and you just have to let them do their thing in the end, and deal with the outcome.
I can't see you being in major trouble legally.

[completerookie]

I get a feeling that ebay and paypal are a law unto themselves and they don't obey any laws ! - ( yup, like everyone, I've had my run-ins )

[chris ashdown]

troublesome customer
annoying customers

If I was your customer I would be both these and many more descriptive things

Why is the customer these things, it is you who fxxxxd up and let them down

I think you need to think better of your customers who justifiably are pissed off.

Refund them £10 or £20 for lost interest and goodwill and a strong appology for your mistake, dont try and pass on the blame they are not interested its you they had a contract with and you basically fxxxxd up

Sorry to be so abrupt, but I feel for the customer on this occassion

[fleetwood]

Chris

Whilst its an unfortunate situation, I don't agree that Panagiotis fxxxxx up.

Yes, the customer was let down, but you have to have some understanding of the product being sold.

Its not an work overall for which money was taken, goods promised, and then turned round and said "ooops, sorry, we didn't have it after all".

This was an advance booking, for a product that was not available on the retail market at time of order, and if I'm guessing right (and yes I am guessing here), is a product which often has limited first release availability.

I would hope that this was explained to the customer within the product description.
There is not a lot a retailer can do, deposit/payment or no, if the stock simply isn't available, at time of release due to an allocation, or product cancellation by the manufacturer, other than offer to place that customer at the head of the queue for the next batch of stock available. Its easy to say that the customer should be compensated - its not your trade.

Should those people who put deposits on the latest Wii console be suing the shops who couldn't supply for Xmas because the manufacturers didn't meet the demand?
Should concert goers be suing ticketmaster (or whoever), who took their money 6 months in advance, for a concert that was then cancelled?

I'm pretty sure that those folk are offered no more than a refund, and a chance to be first in the queue to buy any rescheduled gig. I'll lay odds that no compenastion is forthcoming, beyond this. A customer may be upset by a situation, but that dosen't instantly mean the retailer is wrong.

The customer has a right to be peeved if the terms of an advance booking weren't properly explained, but there is a limit to what can reasonably expected if the situation is beyond the retailers control.

Should retailers offer advance order bookings/goods?
Thats for them to decide.
Some goods (particularly limited editions / highly specialised items) are simply not well suited to 'simple' retailing.

Customers should be made aware of any explicit ordering conditions.
It is then up to them to decide if they are happy to order, with these in mind.

Most of us have had to deal with awkward customers at some stage or other.
I think the words 'annoying' and 'troublesome' may be taken out of context, and doubt that this was pna's first line of thought, when the customer complained about the situation.
Some customers just won't accept any explaination or offer to correct a situation. When they start using words like 'fraud' and 'rip off', it is not always an immediate reaction to say - 'yes, your right - here have a £10 gift voucher to emphasise just what criminals we are".

Chris - if you've never had one of these, your very lucky.

The customer is NOT always right I'm afraid!

[chris ashdown]

Martin I agree with you

My problem is that it started with a basic complaint that the customer was troublesome, which seemed to me like he was being at fault for being pissed off

The other problem is that he was not selling via b&M or a E-commerce shop but via a Ebay auction. This is where you are auctioning something you have. I agree Ebay is whatever you make of it but thats how I would interperate them.

But at the end of the day who knows what was exactly put on the auction description

[pnagames]

Martin I agree with you

My problem is that it started with a basic complaint that the customer was troublesome, which seemed to me like he was being at fault for being pissed off

The other problem is that he was not selling via b&M or a E-commerce shop but via a Ebay auction. This is where you are auctioning something you have. I agree Ebay is whatever you make of it but thats how I would interperate them.

But at the end of the day who knows what was exactly put on the auction description

Chris just to put a few things straight.

first of all we are not pissed off with our customers. they can be upset (i would be as well). but i would not threaten to take the company to court without any basis.

secondly all our sales are not auctions. they are fixed price listings. in my view (and ebay's) you are allowed to take pre-orders for this items.

if it was an auction (i.e. you have to bid and the winner at the end get it) we would never list the item till is in stock.

the problem with this item is that we cannot source it from anywhere. we have asked three suppliers and we have looked at all the large competitors.

the allocation we got was rubbish although we have been a good customer to our supplier.

we have apologised at least 3 times to the customer and fully refunded the money.

we cannot do anything ufortunately.

Thanks for all your comments

Panagiotis

[jont]

It would be helpful to see the actual listing description.

B2C sales are outside the flowery world of usual Ebay listings with the contract between you and the customer. Unless explicitly stated in the listing no one in their right mind would bid and pay for something that is possibly not going to materialise. Even if in the small print it is reasonable to expect the items paid for will be supplied.

If the small print is there it could still prove futile for you as the supplier due to the overuling Acts and Legislations there to protect the customer. Even if upheld by a court the cost to you in terms of bad will etc is incalculable. Their claim of fraud would be along the lines of you knowing the items were not in stock but you still took their money - again the actual product listing is needed to clarify the exact position.

If the product is so very rare and sought after it would have been a better option to list the items when you had the stock in your hand and knew the units available. Off course the horse has well and truly bolted by now.

You informed the customer the items were not available - did you offer any options (waiting, different product etc) or just notify and refund? If the gift was a special present and you heard last minute it was not availble and here is your money back you can understand the customers annoyance.

As George - I would offer them a replacement even at additional cost to yourself or offer them something else (a much better product for example) and do it at cost or even a loss. Of course this would have been better done prior to everything flaring up. Maybe your standard proceedures can be fine tuned in light of what has happened to help mitigate the chances of it happening again.

As the point you are at now they are most likely will not back down unless you can placate them. Keep the dialogue going and try not to sound too abrupt or immovable (I can be as guilty as anyone for standing my ground too long) ... ask them what they want..... offer them an escape route where they feel like they can "win" and you are have "lost" and that will hopefully be a better goal than having you horsewhipped by the Courts.

Good look and hopefully both parties can find some common ground and be happy with the outcome.

[Mike Hughes]

I agree with all the posts that suggest the best route is one that leaves the customer happy with the outcome. If this can be achieved then it's the best outcome for everyone concerned.

I think the suggestions that this will ever reach the courts though are way off the mark. There has been no fraud and even if the distance selling regulations haven't been fully applied to the only thing that will happen on a single complaint like this is a warning from trading standards saying don't do it again.

The only real option for the customer would be to pursue a claim through the small claims court procedure. To be successful they would have to show financial loss and prove that whatever contract existed had been broken.

My personal feeling is that throwing some legal blurb at the customer is just going to leave them feeling more frustrated at not making any progress. I would try to find some sort of solution that could include buying the game they wanted on the open market. I've done this myself in the past as even if I don't make a profit on the order, I'm not creating bad will and wasting time which is better spent elsewhere.

Mike

[marke]

Seems to me that you have two separate issues to deal with. One is keeping your customer happy and the other is dealing with the legal side. Much has been mentioned about keeping your customer happy. You may do some of these and they may or may not keep your customer happy.
I am not a legal man but have spent some time working in purchasing where I had contract law forced down my neck. From what I understand your customer will have no basis in court with a claim that you were running a scam if you have refunded whatever they paid you. If you haven’t refunded them then this would stand up as a claim. They might have a claim against you for breach of contract if the have placed an order which you have agreed to supply. In a conventional ecommerce situation, this would mean the customer placing the order and then you sending an order acceptance. Once you send the order acceptance the contract is formed and you are obliged to fulfil your part unless you have made provision in your terms to cancel the contract. If what we are talking about here is a Ebay sale then I would have thought you would have needed to make clear in the product description that there may be circumstances which might arise where you might not be able to supply. This would then give you an argument to cancel the order and hence the contract. If you didn't do this then your customer is by my understanding technically within his rights to insist that you fulfil your end of the contract or they may sue you for breach of contract. There is one trick you might want to research. This is when you would declare Force Majeure. I have a definition of this as been:

A superior force. An event that no human foresight could anticipate or which if anticipated is too strong to be considered e.g an industrial strike which leads to loss of profits. Circumstances must be abnormal and unforeseeable, so that the consequences could not have been avoided through the exercise of all due care.

You could argue that this applies as it was unreasonable for you to know that you supplier would be unable to supply you and therefore you are within your rights to cancel the contract/order. This would still leave you with a customer satisfaction issue to deal with but possible not a legal one. You would have to research Force Majeure as you really are at the limits of my legal knowledge but it might be worth spending some time on if you think you may have an impending legal situation.

Hope this helps a little.

Mark