suing staff

[PaulGrimshaw]

Hi,

Just venting some anger..

On friday night at 9pm one of my weekend staff TEXTs me and says she has a new job and isnt coming back (been sick for two weeks... hmmm). I have no available staff for this weekend so now I am working sat and sun and have had to cancel plans and of course wasted a lot of time trying to fix things.

anyhoo, i try and ring her on landline and mobile to tell her she has too work or I will sue her for breach of contract, but no avail so in the end I text her (!) back stating if she didnt turn up tomorrow to serve out her notice shes getting sued.

immediately I get her irate mother on the phone who can't understand why I am annoyed!! (how could I sue a young girl, shes done nothing wrong, its not her fault, this other jobs better, blah blah) long story short, I am now suing her for £50 (+ £30 expenses) through the small claims court. I have another 10 staff so I can't be seen to be soft over this.

so, has anyone else dealt with things like this before and is £50 appropriet - should it be more, or is it too much? otherways of doing things?


p.

[leehack]

I wouldn't do it personally as this kind of apathy is what i would expect, not be surprised at tbh, but if you feel strongly, then go for it, a message will be sent to other staff for sure.

On issues like this, i like to think back to when i was that age and things i did at that age. If i did anything along the same lines, then however pissed off i am, i don't think i could take the moral high ground.

If you've ever rang in on a sicky and gone out shopping for the day or gone to the football, i don't think you should act so strongly when you encounter the same treatment. It's all down to how you feel i guess, pretty sure you won't carry it through, you're just pissed off at the moment, let us know, it'd be interesting to know the outcome.

[Duncan Rounding]

I don't think suing is appropriate - sounds like she's probably better off gone. All I would do is dock pay off whatever may be due in lieu of notice. If anyone called for a reference though I would then tell them clearly what I thought.

Also regarding the two weeks off sick - depending on the labour laws and your contract with her you may be able to insist on a Doctors certificate and if not forthcoming then dock pay in accordance with that also.

[completerookie]

wer'e currently trying to discipline an individual. (30+ staff) (don't assume that we want to get rid of the ????)
we have a "consultant company" on tap who picks up the pieces when (not if) we go to tribunual
Its utterly unbelievable how many chances / hoops you seem to have to go thru just to tell him off. and if you want to reduce your staff number, then the hoops get more and more.

We've already been taken to the tribunual once before, took three days of management/directors time without counting all the hassle before the trib.
- we won and won convincingly and when the verdict was anounced the guy was told that "the trib have never met such a ????? before"

at the time, we had a different "advisor" but again, hoop after hoop after hoop.

following that, we vowed to always keep an advisor on tap, we clear ALL letters/emails/notes with them, we insist they sit in on meetings and take notes (within the monthly costs).

My gut feeling is that you would lose - chalk it up to experience - I'm not convinced I'd want that sort of individual working for me anyway.

we've also found out that "giving references" (no matter how truthful they are) is another minefield -be careful of that one.

second thoughts, get Lee to pop round to her house, I'm sure that within seconds, she'd be hung, drawn and quartered and most of your problems would be over, just make sure when you drop him off, you've got a mop and bucket in the van ready to clear up the mess.

[kev67]

Paul

Does the 2 weeks off sick ring a bell to you?

Does she have a contract with you?

How long she been with you?

Personally, I wouldn't bother and you wont get nowhere trying to sue her and for what?

Personal embarassment.........

not worth it mate, you wont stand a hope in hells, been there tried it and failed

[george]

Seek advice from the FSB if you are a member.

[PaulGrimshaw]

Hi Guys,

thanks for all your advice. firstly, in this particular case I have decided not to sue (lee - you were right!). Instead, as part of the small claims process of arbitration I am going to send a letter to them stating I am indeed suing them but 'lets compromise' and pay me £35 quid for the time I was closed on sat morn losing money. if she agrees I get a little bit of cash and some closure if not, she can be scared for a while not knowing whats going on. either way, it costs me nothing and I get some satisifaction.

its amazing the amount of crap employers have to put up with. We have written contracts, regulary updated, full grievence and disicplinary procedure in place and a staff handbook. Every letter we send tells the employee to contact acas for advice etc. its amazing - yet we still get ed over. A couple of years ago we sacked someone for stealing - we had cctv tape and she acknowledged it on tape when we let her go. We followed all procedures and even had a 'investigation' whilst she was on paid leave. Fine. 2 months later we go to tribunal because we didnt contact the police and pursue the matter so therefore the evidence wasnt good enough.. - lost £5k...

so last year, I discovered to my shock our most trusted staff member (20 years service) stealing upto £150 per day from the till (not ringing things through and we had no stock control so didnt notice). Then it turns out that another two were in cahoots with her. We reckon we lost upwards of £4k. So this time, I kept all the CCTV, went to the police and then the whole gross misconduct procedure with all three of them, had the shop closed for a few days whilst getting new staff. Police turn around and caution them, not even court!! unbelievable. (on a side note, one was even using a illegal National Insurance number under a different name and got nothing).

as for references, we do not give them. You cannot lie but you cannot legally give bad references either. As far as I am concerned, if I get no response to a reference request, its a bad thing (tm).

so, you can see why it pisses me off and thats why when I know for a fact that I can win, I want to pursue it even if its a paltry amount!

Paul.

[chris ashdown]

Could you not send a "declined to give a reference" to the new employer, thereby giving them a message rather than giving them nothing

[pnagames]

Paul

was she on permanent contract or a temp contract.

what was her notice?

if she has not provided a doctors note for the two weeks that she was off i think you will be legally entitled to withhold her two weeks wages...

we are not in a position to employ other people ourselves but i have seen from my previous 9-5 jobs the kind of employees that exist.

i have worked for a local council and i can tell you a few horror stories with employees.

[Jan]

You cannot lie but you cannot legally give bad references either.

Surely if your staff have been proven by the police to be stealing from you, you can legally say that?

Regards,

[PaulGrimshaw]

she was on a part time contract. we pay weekly so its a bit of problem.

as far as the references are concerned - if they were arrested and convicted I guess (and I mean guess) it would be ok. but a caution is nothing and has no proof attached so would leave you open i expect.

its not strictly against the law to give bad reference, I slightly overegged it there, but it might as well be - unless you can back up every single thing you say thats bad (with evidence) then either the ex-employee or the new company could sue you.

p.

[Mike Hughes]

My understanding of a caution is that they have to admit to the offence for it to proceed. I just checked online and this the definition from wikipedia:

According to the Home Office, a police caution is a formal warning given to adults who admit they are guilty of first-time minor offences, such as vandalism or petty theft.

So why couldn't this information be given in a reference?

Mike

[los_design]

My understanding of a caution is that they have to admit to the offence for it to proceed. I just checked online and this the definition from wikipedia:



So why couldn't this information be given in a reference?

Mike

Contravention of the DPA.

It is the responsibility of the person concerned to give permission to release this info.

A refusal to supply a reference often speaks volumes.....

On the main topic, suing staff?

Regards

[Mike Hughes]

It is the responsibility of the person concerned to give permission to release this info.

OK. I can understand that it's the individuals reponsibility to give the information about the caution. What I meant was why aren't you allowed to say 'We dismissed this person for stealing from the company'?. They have admitted to the offence by accepting the caution, so can't deny it later on.

Mike

[los_design]

OK. I can understand that it's the individuals reponsibility to give the information about the caution. What I meant was why aren't you allowed to say 'We dismissed this person for stealing from the company'?. They have admitted to the offence by accepting the caution, so can't deny it later on.
Mike

I am afraid not. In a former life working within a large company, I had to dismiss a few peeps for petty theft and the line from HR when we received a request for a reference was that we could not enter specifics just a blanket refusal statement.