Refunding Delivery charges

[dave_finlayson]

So, had a search for this one and can't find anything on the DTI page that states anything categorically, perhaps I'm missing it though.

We have a customer complaining this morning that we have not refunded the shipping we charged her on her order (which she returned for refund). She says that we must refund her shipping as per the DSR's but my understanding was if we state that we will not refund the postage (which we do) then we are ok not to refund.

Is there anywhere that actually states what's allowed and not allowed?

Either way I will refund her as a gesture of goodwill (or law depending on your answers) but would like to know either way!

[Mike Hughes]

I'm sure we discussed this before but here's what the DTI's business guide says:

What specifically do I have to refund to the consumer if
they cancel?

3.48 The DSRs require you to refund any money paid by or on behalf of
the consumer in relation to the contract to the person who made the
payment. This means the full price of the goods, or deposit or prepayment
made, including the cost of delivery. The essence of
distance selling is that consumers buy from home and receive goods
at home. In these circumstances, almost every case of home
shopping will involve delivery of the goods ordered and so delivery
forms an essential part of the contract.

3.49 If you provided additional services such as gift wrapping or express
delivery that a consumer specifically requested, then you may
withhold the additional charges incurred by the consumer for these
services only if:

- the additional services were provided under a separate contract
- you had the consumer’s agreement to start the additional services
before the end of the cancellation period, and
- you provided the consumer with the required written information
before you started the additional services, including information
that the cancellation rights would end as soon as you started to
carry out the additional services.

Edit: Added

The act itself says:

14. - (1) On the cancellation of a contract under regulation 10, the supplier shall reimburse any sum paid by or on behalf of the consumer under or in relation to the contract to the person by whom it was made free of any charge, less any charge made in accordance with paragraph (5).

Where paragraph 5 only discusses the cost of getting the goods back if the customer doesn't pay for that.

So basically it seems the customer is right. You have to refund the P+P charge as well.

Mike

[dave_finlayson]

Mike,

I did find a couple of posts but they seemed to be contradicting statements, some saying you don't have to refund if you state this in your T&C's.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying!

[Cheapprices4u]

i tend to refund there delivery costs,
but they have to pay to get the goods back to me

[jont]

The DSR can be found at http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/bus...ral/oft698.pdf

Also of note from there

3.55 If you want the consumer to return the goods and to pay for that
return, you must make it clear in the contract and as part of the
required written information – see paragraph 3.10. If the consumer
then fails to return the goods, or sends them at your expense, you
can charge them the direct cost to you of the return, even if you
have already refunded the consumer’s money. You are not allowed
to make any further charges, such as a restocking charge or an
administration charge

.
3.56 If you did not include these details in the required written information
then you cannot charge anything. See paragraph 3.10. You can never
require consumers to pay the cost of returning substitute goods –
see paragraph 3.1 for more information.

[los_design]

We reduce this down to a nice caramalised coating and summise...

ensure the details are correct in your T&C which are visible to all and accepted prior to order (proof of accesibility & positive assent is vital).

Our retailers refund 100% but the client pays to return to base as stated above.

[jxm28788]

[from OFT's guide to the DSR for businesses]

When do I have to refund a consumer’s money if they cancel
an order?
3.46 As soon as possible after the consumer cancels, and in any case
within 30 days at the latest. You must refund the consumer’s money
even if you have not yet collected the goods or had them returned to
you by the consumer. You cannot insist on the goods being received
by you before you make a refund. See also paragraph 3.64.

Soooo... if the customer buys £500 worth of stuff from you they can email to say they want to cancel for a refund, but you can't wait until they return the goods!? That seems a bit harsh - what's to stop them getting a refund then keeping the goods?

Further more what happens if, despite your instructions to the contrary, they plop the items in the nearest post box with no indurance or proof of posting (or at least claim to have done)? You actually have to refund them? Surely they are responsible for the goods until they are returned to you?

[Duncan Rounding]

It's very one-sided and we all need to include some contingency for this in the selling prices of the goods.

You have 30 days in which to make a refund. It would be reasonable that the customer has returned the goods within that time - so essentially you are waiting for the return of the goods. The customer also has a duty to take reasonable care of the goods and if the goods are not looked after you can take action against them.

Who pays the cost of returning the goods and how they should be returned should be made very clear in your T&Cs.

[jxm28788]

my t&c's make it clear that they are responsible for the return of the goods AND the cost of that return.

But my question remains, if we have to refund them within 30 days what is to stop them stalling and stalling and stalling on the return until after the 30 days? Once we are then forced to give them their money back how can we 'make them' return the goods without costly legal action?

I notice reading further down another clause -

3.55 If you want the consumer to return the goods and to pay for that return, you must make it clear in the contract and as part of the
required written information – see paragraph 3.10. If the consumer
then fails to return the goods, or sends them at your expense, you
can charge them the direct cost to you of the return, even if you
have already refunded the consumer’s money. You are not allowed
to make any further charges, such as a restocking charge or an
administration charge.

ok, so if they fail to return them we can collect them and "charge them the direct cost to you of the return". All very well if we have their credit card details, but the way most of us work we don't ever see these so how can we charge them? Sure, we can send them a bill, but they can just chuck it in the bin...

I can see a circumstance here, where someone could place a big order, ask for their refund, but refuse t0 return the goods and be unco-operative in letting you collect them such that you can't get the goods back within 30 days and then have to legally return their money even though they won't give you your goods back!

[Duncan Rounding]

You're absolutely right. The safeguards are only for the customer and the merchant has to take all the risk.

[Darren B]

Sorry to add a slight contradiction here, i had a nice long chat with the trading standards about a similar situation, so you will not the goverment bodies agree with each other.

We had a customer return some items, but they returned them to the wrong branch, so we never did see the items. However we recieved a call from the trading standards saying they had recieved a complaint for not refunding blah blah blah. But we sorted it and could charge them for the cost of delivery to the correct branch - like the one that was on the delivery note and invoice. Some people make you chuckle

anyway we covered the returns issue and this is what they told me.

1) The customer has the right to return an item within 7 days for a full refund, however they must inform you they are returning the item and it must be with you within 7 days of them recieving it.
2) You DO NOT have to pay the return costs providing you state you will not.
3) You have to refund within 30 days providing the item HAS been return
4) It is the customers responsibility to ensure the item is in a saleable condition and unused when returned.

I question him about point 4 and he tells me that if the customer has used / opened or damaged the original manufacturers packaging and the item can not be resold as new or warrenty maybe be voided then they are not covered under the DSR.

Now point 3 i have never heard of a company giving a refund before recieving an item back and i very much doubt any court could inforce it either. Check you credit card regulations aswell, i think you will also find in there that once you have charged the credit card you have entered into a contract with the customer, you will also find if you own a credit card you are advised that you (the customer) the use of the card means you agree to the terms of you credit card company, which for the most means they are controlled by the rules laid down by the bank, which brings in a whole new set of regulations.

Now the reason i mention all this is because. The more you read the more contradiction you will get. Everyone will hide behind the rules that meet there needs. To be honest its not worth the fight with one customer, i have refunded one that continuosly argued but i state in my T & C i wont, so some we loose. I add a little extra on to all my postage, a few pence and it covers the costs of these. Fact of life, someone will pay for someone else wehter they realise or not.

Accept it will happen and move on, just remember, have more than one delivery option, if your customer selects a faster service this is a special service and you dont have to refund it infull

D

[jxm28788]

3) You have to refund within 30 days providing the item HAS been return
4) It is the customers responsibility to ensure the item is in a saleable condition and unused when returned.
The more you read the more contradiction you will get.

No kidding, that completely contradicts the DSR -

3.46 As soon as possible after the consumer cancels, and in any case
within 30 days at the latest. You must refund the consumer’s money
even if you have not yet collected the goods or had them returned to
you by the consumer. You cannot insist on the goods being received
by you before you make a refund.

and 4 contradicts kind of with

However, the DSRs do not link cancellation rights with a supplier’s ability to resell items as new.

[Darren B]

John that was what i was saying, they all contradict each other, thats why it is all so confusing.

As i said sometimes its not worth trying to sort it out / understand it, take the loss and move on

D

[jxm28788]

John that was what i was saying, they all contradict each other, thats why it is all so confusing

yup, I understand - I was just pointing out that they weren't little or slightly ambiguous contradictions!

As i said sometimes its not worth trying to sort it out / understand it, take the loss and move on

Luckily nothings happened yet - it's just an implication that ocurred to me as I read through the DSR. Or at least the OFT's friendly version of it...

[Darren B]

To be honest john, someone cancelling between me posting it and them getting it has never happened to me, i hope it never does but i guess it will some day

D