Another annoying customer... really taking the micky!

[jxm28788]

Just had a return from a customer, just arrived without warning. No "We'd like to return this please, can you tell us your returns procedure" - They didn't contact us at all.

It just came back in a plastic 'courier' bag with absolutely NO packaging at all, and a note saying "Please refund, item not wanted". And it should therefore come as no surprise that the retail boxes are all battered and dented after the journey.

Just opened the box and the product has obviously been used, some of the consumables have also been used and a couple of consumables are missing their retail boxes, the whole thing smells of smoke, and again the internal packaging is partially missing as well. They just dumped all the manuals and the driver CD in the side of the box (not even putting the CD in it's sleave!) or putting the manuals back in the bag. They've made no attempt at all to protect the contents or put it anything like back the way it was, it looks like they just litterally unpacked everything then just dropped it all back in the box.

So what are our rights on this one? Do they have any duty to at least make an effort to get it back to us in one piece? Can we make a charge for the damage? Is their right to return gone once they use it? Do they have any rights at all given that this was a company and not a consumer?

Can I just send it back and say 'no refund'? Even better (to save me another delivery charge) can I say 'no refund, please arrange for collection at your own cost'?

I let a lot of stuff go but this is really taking the p1$$!



(goods were ordered early december; cost £100 approx; are in no condition to sell so practically worthless to me; doesn't meet any conditions of my returns policy)

[Sean Williams]

Just had a return from a customer, just arrived without warning. No "We'd like to return this please, can you tell us your returns procedure" - They didn't contact us at all.

So what are our rights on this one? Do they have any duty to at least make an effort to get it back to us in one piece? Can we make a charge for the damage? Is their right to return gone once they use it? Do they have any rights at all given that this was a company and not a consumer?

It makes my blood boil too
The DSR's state the customer has to inform you via a durable medium, within 7 days of receipt of the goods, that they wish to return them.
The key wording is they have to take 'reasonable care' of the goods and they must be unused.
Sounds to me like you have a case.

I've found the local Trading Standards Office to be very helpful - perhaps ask their advice?

BO luck

[leehack]

Tell them to sod off and say they are currently accruing £5 per day storage charges.

[jxm28788]

The DSR's state the customer has to inform you via a durable medium, within 7 days of receipt of the goods, that they wish to return them.The key wording is they have to take 'reasonable care' of the goods and they must be unused.

But do the DSR's apply to 'business 2 business' transactions? I thought not - but not sure what does apply in that case...?

[george]

John, I'd ignore it for a bit. Make sure your refund info says seven days, or whatever, and in the same condition it was recieved in, then let them get back to you, when they do, just be ready with what to say, no partial refund bollox either. They ruined the item, they pay.

[jxm28788]

John, I'd ignore it for a bit. Make sure your refund info says seven days, or whatever, and in the same condition it was recieved in, then let them get back to you, when they do, just be ready with what to say, no partial refund bollox either. They ruined the item, they pay.

yeah think that's what I'll do, certainly not in any hurry to email them about it. Just wanted to make sure there was no stupid law / regulation that they would suddenly spring on me when I told them to get stuffed... maybe I'll run it past trading standards in the mean time just to be sure.

Tell them to sod off and say they are currently accruing £5 per day storage charges.

Just a thought, but couldn't I just say "please collect within 30 days or we will dispose of it"?

Basically, they have taken an item that they own, and sent it unsolicited to me. Which of course is ok for them to do - it belongs to them and if they want to give it away that's their right I guess...

[Stereo Steve]

Did they send it back signed for? If not, bin it, delete this thread and say 'return, what return?'

[jxm28788]

Did they send it back signed for? If not, bin it, delete this thread and say 'return, what return?'

It crossed my mind, but it was sent special delivery (cost em £10 to send it as well, they're going to be pretty annoyed when they figure out how much a courier would charge them to collect it from me! I have a regular contract with a courier and they charge about £20 for a collection!).

Just wondering if I am under any obligation to send it back to them? ie. if they said "ooo it's going to cost is £30 to collect it can we just send a cheque for £10 and you put it in the post?" can I just say "no, you must collect it"? (for no other reason than to be awkward!)

[chris ashdown]

DSR do not apply to business to business as both sides are expected to have knowledge of what they are buying and therefore no need for accepting returns

You can if you wish accept returns from businesses and charge a re-stocking fee, but this is entirly up to you

Anyway goods must be returned with original packaging and in a re-saleable condition even for DSR customers

Just phone them up and tell them to arrange packaging and collection

[jxm28788]

Here's the reply from trading standards, just fyi (I asked specifically about the case, but also hypothetically if the customer had been a consumer rather than business) -

With reference to your recent email, I am very happy to give some advice about relevant consumer law with regard to the issues you have raised.

As you correctly point out, the Distance Selling Regulations do not apply to business to business contracts, so the purchaser in question would have no rights under this law anyway.

If they were a consumer, then they would, of course, have their 7 day cooling off period.

Under the regulations, consumers would have a duty to retain possession of the goods and/or take reasonable care of them during the cancellation period. It is therefore wise for a supplier to make it crystal clear what you would like consumers to do with goods they are returning and how they can take care of them. If a consumer fails to take reasonable care of goods you may not, I'm afraid, withhold their refund (which they are absolutely entitled to) but you will have a right of action against them for any costs you have incurred arising out of their lack of care (for example, if the goods are damaged and unable to be resold). You cannot, under the regulations, insist that consumers return goods in the original packaging (unless items specified in the regs like audio or video recordings) - you may only request that they return them with the original packaging but you may not insist.

This is a quick potted summary of the situation were your customer to be a consumer (which they are not!). Further in-depth guidance is available on the Dept. for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform website where you can obtain a PDF of the official guidance for businesses from the OFT/DTI (now named BERR).
http://www.berr.gov.uk/consumers/buy...ing/index.html

In terms of the specific question you have asked in this case about what your options are, I would say that you should write to the purchaser stating that they do not have a right to return goods unless they are faulty or misdescribed in any way. I would point out that no refund is owed and that, in addition, the goods have been damaged in transit. I would suggest that they may wish to contact you to arrange collection of the goods within a set time period. In practical terms it may be better for you to pay to send the goods back to them so that you do not have the problem of them sitting around and you put the ball back in the customer's court. If you do not do this, but ask the consumer to collect them and he chooses not to, we would give the advice that you could dispose of them after three months, but would also refer you to our factsheet entitled 'Disposal of Uncollected Goods' on our website at www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/hertfordshire under business advice, guidance leaflets.

The interesting thing here is the comment that they don't have to return the goods in the original packaging! So a consumer could buy it, ditch the retail packaging, decide they don't want it, and return it in a tatty cardboard box, and you'd have to give them a full refund!

[Sean Williams]

That's good, useful clarification - many thanks for posting it
That's a b*gger about the original packaging though

[bamboo]

Luckily most consumers don't have a clue about the distance selling regs or what they contain.

I used them to return a car I'd bought over the phone. Had to go to the County Court as the motor trader didn't have a clue DSR even existed but got a full refund and he had to stand the return transport costs. Result.

[Stereo Steve]

DSR returns are a fact of trading though and they are rarely resalable in my experience. We just swallow the loss and flog them on ebay in our clearance section. Get 90% of the money back most times. Some sales just go wrong and it's often best to try to settle the matter ASAP and get on with selling other stuff.

[jxm28788]

Sure. But there's genuine returns (fair enough), unfair returns (ok, fact of life), and taking the p!$$ - and this one was the latter!