layouts - whats the plan of action when changing them

[completerookie]

I'm busy experimenting with layouts, (mainly CSS based layouts) and would like to know other peoples plan of actions are when it comes to changing the layouts contained in actinic.

I want (in the future) to be able to do new layouts - probably based on existing layouts so, I'm afraid of upsetting existing layouts incase I want to refer back to them at a later date.

On the other hand, If I make a copy of a layout, change it etc, surely I miss out on those all-important bug-fixes that will come in future small releases of actinic. - How do I know that "messrs actinic" has changed a layout to fix a big bug and I've missed out !

At the moment, If I want to make a change (no matter how small) I make copies of layouts, then change the new layouts (read experiment with the layout) to see what happens. If I screw it up, then I just change the layout back to the original, copy the contents, change back to the new layout and paste the contents in and start again.

I've only just (as I write this) found the "FIND" option within the library of layouts - until now, I've guessed where the layout is - the things you learn when you think slightly more logically ! I think a BIG button on the library popup saying "FIND" would help everyone a lot ! - ( one for development Chris ! )

so, back to the question - Whats other peoples "plan-of-action" when it comes to playing with layouts
do you:

• just jump in and revise the master copy
• copy the master (keeping most of the name)
• copy the master (to hell with the name)
• panic when it comes to applying the latest patches (I've read the posts regarding which option to tak when you apply an upgrade.)
• take a snapshot, play, panic, reach for the last snapshot
• none of the above.

anybody care to tell the forum how scared they are when it comes to playing with the new concept of layouts?

kev

[RuralWeb]

take a snapshot, play, panic, reach for the last snapshot

and repeat

[leehack]

One of the biggest mistakes i have made is failing to take regular snapshots. I will spend two hours getting the shop to look like i want it too and then start fiddling with other things and mess it all up and have to revert to an old snapshot. I then have to incorporate and remember the things i changed, which admittedly i do much quicker a second and third time round, however it is frustrating and annoying.

I am now very strict with myself and i approach each individual task until it is completed and then take a snapshot and detail what is included in this snapshot.

A prime example of my lazy approach to snapshots, was Monday night. I hate the way my sitemap looks in V8 and wanted it to look like the V7 one. When i first created the site in V7, i never touched the sitemap, it is totally original as Actinic created it. For some inexplicable reason (more like very poor upgrade process) the V8 one looks absolutely pants. There is no reason for this whatsoever. If they have a totally original V7 sitemap template, it should upgrade to V8 without a single problem IMO.

As it was i tried many different things and eventually decided to include all of the sitemap related layouts into one file and see what it gave me. It crashed and would not load and after an hour of trying, i had to deinstall the whole of V8, reinstall and start the work over the past 5 days all over again. I lost the plot and stayed up until 6.30 this morning getting everything back to how i had done it previously. Sadly i had redone all of the page titles and meta information and with 3,000 products i was livid having to do this all again.

SNAPSHOT, SNAPSHOT, SNAPSHOT people, or you will also recall one day reading this post.

CTRL+Z is a handy feature in the design window, reversing anything you have done instantly, this works well with the instant preview window.

I sit here contemplating sorting out the sitemap again tonight and i have a cold sweat. I found it so ridiculously difficult to try change that i am more inclined to take the stance that "it doesn't look too bad", which is an awful way of looking at things.

[RuralWeb]

For some inexplicable reason (more like very poor upgrade process) the V8 one looks absolutely pants. There is no reason for this whatsoever. If they have a totally original V7 sitemap template, it should upgrade to V8 without a single problem IMO.

I have upgraded several sites from the standard V7 sitemap and they have all changed to the sitemap you have shown in V8. I agree that it does look pants but changing it is another story

[pinbrook]

I tend to play with a layout, destroy it, revert to factory setting, repeat....

[leehack]

I have upgraded several sites from the standard V7 sitemap and they have all changed to the sitemap you have shown in V8. I agree that it does look pants but changing it is another story

If you solve this mystery, please do share, i have done everything i can possibly think of and it is really bugging me.
The V8 sitemap makes "Lost" look easy to follow.

[completerookie]

and i have a cold sweat.

and thats my fear,
I don't have answers, at the moment, its just play-time but, for instance, all I wanted to do was to remove some simple divider lines, but (when playing) where do you start. before you know it, I'd lost all my layout when I looked in the design tab. If I looked in a real browser, it appeared as I hoped it would, but do you think I could get it to work in the pre-view panel.

I'm hoping that other people will be responding tomorrow. one real question is "do you alter the original or make a copy" - I've been programming for 25+ yrs, and I've always taken copies, but other than a snapshot, I can't see any other way of doing things.

What happens on a real live site (I'm playing remember) I take a snapshot, play, download a few orders, screw things up, reach for that snapshot and I've lost any new orders that have come down the line.

if you exit, you can take a "Site Snapshot" (everything) OR a "database snapshot" - problem is that designs are now part of the database.

We are not allowed to have a "play copy" only the original, so again the question comes back to "what do we do ? ? "

I'm hoping that Chris (actinic) joins in this thread.

thanks for the replies so far.

kev

[leehack]

and thats my fear,
I don't have answers, at the moment, its just play-time but, for instance, all I wanted to do was to remove some simple divider lines, but (when playing) where do you start. before you know it, I'd lost all my layout when I looked in the design tab. If I looked in a real browser, it appeared as I hoped it would, but do you think I could get it to work in the pre-view panel.

I know the exact divider lines you are talking about, i had 2 of them on my design which looked awful. From knowledge of HTML, i was sure they would br <HR> tags so just looked for them, removed just those tags and then tested. They went immediately and it was all fine. A lot of it comes down to experience and confidence and a "getout" if it all goes tits up.

I'm hoping that other people will be responding tomorrow. one real question is "do you alter the original or make a copy" - I've been programming for 25+ yrs, and I've always taken copies, but other than a snapshot, I can't see any other way of doing things.

I try and approach this by changing things that can be undone (CTRL-Z) etc. If i'm taking out some code or making some changes and i'm a little unsure or worried, i just copy the whole file into notepad first and have that as a reference. Having 2 screens is also a nice feature, with the original on view on one of them.

What happens on a real live site (I'm playing remember) I take a snapshot, play, download a few orders, screw things up, reach for that snapshot and I've lost any new orders that have come down the line.

Any changes you make are only put live on the web, if you click the update button. If you bugger anything up as long as you don't click on update, then you have as much time as you need without paniccing.

if you exit, you can take a "Site Snapshot" (everything) OR a "database snapshot" - problem is that designs are now part of the database.

We are not allowed to have a "play copy" only the original, so again the question comes back to "what do we do ? ? "

Depends on your situation. Currently i have a V7 site live and i also have a test V8 site live on the same domain. As long as i am in test mode permanently (which i check religiously) i can do all the viewing and testing i like.

Snapshots are great, i think they are the most useful part of Actinic personally. If you have an up to date snapshot before you start anything, then there is little you harm. As with most new things and more importantly "change", most of us look at it and first reaction is WTF, within a week or so, it becomes the norm and you start to feel comfortable.

Its a bit like when you first had a go on a PC, you thought if you clicked the wrong button, the world might blow up. Once you get some knowledge and more importantly, some confidence you can ultimately get wherever you want. Forums like this are incredible too, this forum is the single most powerful thing Actinic have been part of creating and the beauty of it, is that it is mainly run by its users.

People like Jont, Norman, DRounding, Jo, Malcolm, Bill are people who i rate very very highly and hold in high esteem. Their input and constant input to this forum is quite incredible.

[NormanRouxel]

What I used to find really useful in V7 was to simply use Windows Explorer to sort my Site folder by date. This would quickly identify which templates I'd tinkered with and when.

Other than the V8 Compare Layout with Original (which only does a single layout at a time), has anyone found a way to see in one operation what's been recently changed?

[completerookie]

Any changes you make are only put live on the web, if you click the update button. If you bugger anything up as long as you don't click on update, then you have as much time as you need without paniccing.

this only works if you have time to play, once you go live, andyour'e taking live orders (with stock control turned on), you end up uploading to the web based upon sales NOT based upon cockups.

People like Jont, Norman, DRounding, Jo, Malcolm, Bill are people who i rate very very highly and hold in high esteem. Their input and constant input to this forum is quite incredible

"here here" no questions about their input, hence the question.

What I used to find really useful in V7 was to simply use Windows Explorer to sort my Site folder by date. This would quickly identify which templates I'd tinkered with and when.

nice idea Norman, I'll start playing here, takes you back to the good old days days . . . aahhhh

If actinic want to make it more powerful, what about the ability to take a snapshot of the DESIGN/LAYOUTS ONLY, to hell with the data, a FULL snapshot does that. Let us (the users) take a full snapshot to preserve data, then a "layout snapshot".
this way, I can play about with the layout, screw it up repeatedly until I'm sure that its right, If I still can't get it right, take a further "I've got this far with the layout change snapshot", restore the layout to make things correct again, then sit back for the night, wipe those panic beads of sweat off your forehead, upload etc and when your'e ready to panic again, restore that "I've got this far with the layout change snapshot" and continue with the screwups.

clearly I have to alter the occasional product to test the new layouts, but I can make notes of that (or take another fulll snapshot if I want)
The words might not be great, but you get the idea, let me preserve the LAYOUTS only, let me experiment safely.

As I become more confident ( mummy will be proud I said that ! ), I'm changing more that one template at a time, then the capabilities of "losing it" grow exponentially !

more input has (and will be) gratefully received

[pinbrook]

what about the ability to take a snapshot of the DESIGN/LAYOUTS ONLY, to hell with the data,

this already exists, see design snapshot feature, but crates a databas backup so may not be what you mean