Training manuals?

[msimpson46]

Does anyone know any decent training books/manuals for V8. The getting started guide was fairly basic, and I didn't find the training course particuarly good as an overview.

Thanks

Michael

[leehack]

Surprised at that to be honest, have only heard good things about the courses. Is there a particluar aspect you are struggling with or just generally? The help within actinic is also very good.

[msimpson46]

I'm a complete novice which is probably why I'm having problems. The course was fair but I am struggling with the design and layout of my site. Basic things like changing size of text and menu bars orientation and size I am finding a headache. I seem to have to go to each individual piece of the site from the design tree and fiddle with it, only for something to go wrong and then have to start again.

Is there an easy way to change the overall feel of the site more easily? I worked out to change colours and have played with the design templates, but still want to do more. I don't really want to get involved with dreamweaver as again I have little experience and the latest version seems to have made integrating dreamweaver more difficult despite its new integration feature.

Any advice on how I might learn more on designing with actinic would be appreciated.

Michael

[fleetwood]

Michael

Understanding how the template elements fit together, does take a fair effort, but it does click together in the end (and make some kind of sense) if you keep at it.
The inbuilt help is quite good, and contains tons more than the printed 'Getting Started' manual.
As does the downloadable Advanced User Guide (available from the Actinic download area) - a must have it you are starting to customise your site beyond the standard templates.

I would also get yourself a good css/xhtml book.
Providing you are willing to put the time in - and it sounds as if you are - understanding the styling elements can help enormously.

Can heartily recommend:

Integrated HTML and CSS: A Smarter, Faster Way to Learn (Paperback)
by Virginia DeBolt (Author)

I started with zero css knowledge, and have built a reasonable working knowledge over a few weeks.

[leehack]

Any advice on how I might learn more on designing with actinic would be appreciated.

Michael

It depends whether you are involved for a one off (just designing your own store) or you intend to design other sites (maybe for clients) in the future. If it is a one off, then to really get into the nuts and bolts of the site and how to design, really isn't worth the time it takes IMO. Some of us pulled our hair out when V8 was first launched 9 months ago, however it's becoming a comfortable piece of software nowadays. I and many others must have literally hundreds of hours clocked up learning about it and how to use it.

If you would like to move away from a standard theme, then it's important to have an understanding on CSS and html and the general architecture of how actinic works. To learn these is not worth it IMO, especially if this will be the only time you will use that knowledge.

The largest amount of time spent on an actinic site build is the inputting of products, however a monkey can be taught to do this, it is so simple. Maybe your best bet woudl be to employ a designer to create the store design for you and then you do the monkey work adding products. After you have finished inputting the products, pass it back to the designer for a day to do a general tidy up and basic seo work for you.

There are few walks of life where Joe Bloggs can pick up a professional trade within a few days. Would you connect the gas supply to a new cooker? Would you try and fit a new carpet? Would you try and plaster your own walls? For some reason, websites seem to ignore this general idea and give Joe Public the idea that he can build a site. On the surface this may well look the case, however that is only half the battle, what goes on behind the scenes on your website is as important, although invisible.

In short, keep it very simple and stick religiously to one of the basic themes actinic provides while you learn about it and add things as you learn. Alternatively, contact a designer to do the stuff that counts and concentrate on the many other important things that are required for a successful website.

I am yet to see a home built actinic site by a novice that could not be ripped apart by a good actinic professional and made more successful. If affording a designer is out of the question, then it's a case of a steep learning curve, sleepless nights and many hours of work and eventually all becomes clear one day. If it could be learnt in just a day or two, there would be no need for professional web designers, they would become extinct in a very short period of time.

[fleetwood]

I can't say I entirely agree with your post Lee.

Designing with Actinic is not easy, but is also not beyond the realms of the amateur. I don't think it is right to put folk off having a go, under the guise that they are not professionals.

It does rely upon you having the time to devote to learning how to use the software to its fullest extent, and to learn the associated html and css skills, but can certainly be mastered.

Its horses for courses.

If you simply want to run a webstore, and either don't have the time, don't enjoy learning computer programs, or just don't want to get your hands dirty, then yes, you should be sticking to the out of the box templates, and fill-me-in variables, and you will build a functioning, but generic looking site.

Alternatively, you could employ a good designer, and get a nifty looking site built...
..and when you want it updated, you can pay them to do that for you too.

Its really down to what level of competance you have, and what time you are willing to devote - but designing webstores with Actinic is not just a professional job.

I shall lay by new 'amateur' site open to be 'ripped apart' by the Actinic professionals, in due course

[leehack]

I can't say I entirely agree with your post Lee.

You rarely do.

Designing with Actinic is not easy, but is also not beyond the realms of the amateur. I don't think it is right to put folk off having a go, under the guise that they are not professionals.

Very biased view Martin, i thought i had quite clearly laid out both options and even a nice middle ground, which IMO is the best option if you do want to get stuck in a bit.

It does rely upon you having the time to devote to learning how to use the software to its fullest extent, and to learn the associated html and css skills, but can certainly be mastered.

If buying books learning about html and css, along with the steep learning curve and time you will have to put towards learning how to customise the software (as a one off) is worth it, then i would run down the street naked gladly. An external template designed to the client's wish for £200-500 cannot even be in question surely against the time it would take for someone new to pick up these new skills from scratch.

Its horses for courses.

Designers for designing this means surely?

If you simply want to run a webstore, and either don't have the time, don't enjoy learning computer programs, or just don't want to get your hands dirty, then yes, you should be sticking to the out of the box templates, and fill-me-in variables, and you will build a functioning, but generic looking site.

Alternatively, you could employ a good designer, and get a nifty looking site built...
..and when you want it updated, you can pay them to do that for you too.

This repeats exactly what my point was, if anyone can spare the time (as a one off) to invest and learn all of these aspects to get them to a design they wish, i'd suggest they are either a glutton for punishment or ill advised. IMO a person with no knowledge on any of these aspects is much better spending their time on things they know about i.e. their business and the numerous things involved in that.

Its really down to what level of competance you have, and what time you are willing to devote - but designing webstores with Actinic is not just a professional job.

I shall lay by new 'amateur' site open to be 'ripped apart' by the Actinic professionals, in due course

If you class yourself in that bracket, then so be it, i never would and never have. What you know already far distinguishes you from someone with no html, css or actinic knowledge. You really should be a bit more positive about yourself. When your site is launched i would expect nothing short of a great looking site, BUT think of the time in real terms that it has taken you to get this knowledge, is that time really worth just a few hundred quid as a one off? You enjoy it and will use that knowledge for further use, so it is justified, it would never be sensible to use that amount of time as a one off, even in your most stubborn view, you could not agree to that.

[fleetwood]

You rarely do.

Ah, we do seem to cross swords sometimes Lee - but I hope you realise I'm not out to antagonize - if I come across so, then please accept my apologies.

My reaction was due to me feeling you were saying - if your just designing your own store (as opposed to designing sites for a living), then why bother trying to do it yourself?

I admit I enjoy the challenge, and like the full control that doing it myself gives me. Business wise, learning the ins and outs of Actinic and web design is probably not the best use of my time, but it keeps me out of trouble (and out of Mrs. F's way ).
I didn't want Michael feeling put off, if he was up for the challenge.

I must admit that I didn't realise you could get a fully customised professional template design for as little £200-£500 - I thought all web designers made a mint

as for..

If you class yourself in that bracket

.. I guess I was over reacting, but it felt like you were saying that if you were just designing for your own store, then your not a real professional!

[george]

I want a working site to sell my stuff.

Maybe mine is regimental.

But it sells my stuff.

[fleetwood]

And you had your logo redesigned just to help you sell more stuff George...?

(goat point??)

seriously though, yes, that is the point of any retail design - functionality over style.

personally, I'm redisgning because there are features I want to add that I feel would enhance our customers buying experience - an improved navigation system for one - which is taking a while to nail - but I 'hope' will be worth it in the end.

[leehack]

Ah, we do seem to cross swords sometimes Lee - but I hope you realise I'm not out to antagonize - if I come across so, then please accept my apologies.

I don't take it that way at all dude, i have no problems with good debates at all. If we all agreed it'd be one boring place. I often find it very interesting seeing differing views.

My reaction was due to me feeling you were saying - if your just designing your own store (as opposed to designing sites for a living), then why bother trying to do it yourself?

Nah not at all, to move away from a standard template, needs a lot of knowledge and if you don't already have this knowledge, i don't think it's worth investing the time to learn it, if this is just a one off design.

I admit I enjoy the challenge, and like the full control that doing it myself gives me. Business wise, learning the ins and outs of Actinic and web design is probably not the best use of my time, but it keeps me out of trouble (and out of Mrs. F's way ).
I didn't want Michael feeling put off, if he was up for the challenge.

I can see that in your posts and i can see your genuine enthusiasm for CSS especially. The way you feel on this (very similar to me actually) is not the norm though, most people do not want to spend hours learning something like this.

I must admit that I didn't realise you could get a fully customised professional template design for as little £200-£500 - I thought all web designers made a mint

The V8 integration with dreamweaver should have put paid to expensive templates nowadays, as they are so quick and easy to create. It's not correct to talk about prices in here of course, however a template IMO should be towards the bottom figure in that range. Anything more and it's just plain expensive IMO.

as for.. .. I guess I was over reacting, but it felt like you were saying that if you were just designing for your own store, then your not a real professional!

If you are designing your own store, under no circumstances does this mean it is automatically going to be crap or unprofessional, as it is down to the individual, their ability and the time they invest. Large majority if not most fail on quite a few aspects though, i would be astonished if yours fell into this bracket, cos i can just tell from the way you talk and your interest that it won't.

It's a shame that there isn't a gallery of the worst actinic sites as these would quite clearly make my point, however that would be unfair and wrong. I have seen some sites, especially lately, that are nothing short of horrific and so far off the mark it is untrue. It's sometimes funny to see them, however it's also frustrating as if these people had spent a few hundred pound, they would have a design and structure at least 50 times better.

I've always believed that a little knowledge can be very dangerous, a novice just finding actinic, html and css all at the same time, regularly fits this bill for me.

Good debate anyway!

[leehack]

I want a working site to sell my stuff.

Maybe mine is regimental.

But it sells my stuff.

I'm sure i commented recently that i really like your site (unless i'm confused with someone else). It's good to look at and if your products are what a person wants to see, i can't see them being disappointed at all. I see no glaring mistakes at all and it's a very good standard of build.

You have nearly 1500 posts to your name, automatically if anyone has a few hundred posts, they would not be in the "novice" label for me as they will have picked up so much info, far more than they probably realise.

[george]

And you had your logo redesigned just to help you sell more stuff George...?

Not really, I just used up a favour I was offered.


Still not convinced with it though.

[fleetwood]

Not really, I just used up a favour I was offered.

I knew that my friend - just we hadn't bantered for a while, so i thought I'd wind you up a bit

Still not convinced with it though.

For my two-penneth worth, I think it looks the part George.

Nearly 1500 posts... and not one goal ... <s>

[george]

For my two-penneth worth, I think it looks the part George.

I seem to be the only person `unconvinced`.