Search Engines

[stuff-uk.net]

Get to no 1 in google guaranteed

The easiest way, once google is up and spidering your site is to invent a word or phrase that nobody else uses. Put it on your site and lo and behold you will get to number one in google.

Try TONERATOR or INKURATOR



Alan


Best way into google is first get into ODP (Open Directory) then pay for Yahoo

[Mike Hughes]

Hi steve,

I'm glad to see you're taking this on the chin. A mature attitude that improves your standing in my estimation.

Unfortunately, your SE optimisation isn't so impressive. A quick look at the example you gave of mothernaturebras shows that it could do much better if the pages were properly optimised.

I've only taken a quick look, but it looks to me as if neither the brochure pages nor the catalog pages use any of the heading tags (H1, H2, etc) or other key tags to help Google and the other engines recognise what the site is about. Even the titles on the catalog pages just say 'mother nature' which is another wasted opportunity.

I'd highly recommend anyone who wants to do well in the search engines to read around the subject a little bit, ask a few questions here, and then do it themselves.

They'll do far better in the rankings than paying someone who only does half the job.

Mike

[sbaker]

Hi Mike

A very valid point here. However you are judging us on one client.

This particular client requested us not to optimise the catalogue as they are having certain problems with Actinic and their current web developer. We were asked to optimise the front end and leave the catalogue be, which we have done.

We are aware that by optimising the catalogue it would increase the rankings, however if the client requests us not to do something, we can only accomodate their requests.

Reading around the subject will improve knowledge on SEO, however to cover all the angles within what we do would take a lot of time and research, something which many people prefer to outsource.

You obviously have a lot of knowledge in this field, something which I appreciate many people will also have. We cater for people who dont have such knowledge, or who do have the knowledge dont have the time to carry out this kind of work.

[Josie]

Boys, boys! Put aside the duelling pistols for a moment please. I have a question regarding the original discussion of how Actinic optimises a page for search engines.

In the white paper referenced, point 4 mentions meta tags and keywords. When I use this facility (giving a unique list of keywords for each product page) I notice in the source code that *two* lists of keywords appear. That is the original one from the 'primary' template and this one I just created. I wonder whether both are recognised by the search engine or whether one overrides the other (and if so which one). Does anyone know?

Also, how useful are keywords these days anyway since search engines are more powerful and index the body text? I know they can't harm but is it worth spending a lot of time on them?

Josie

[Mike Hughes]

There should really only be set of 'keyword' meta tags. I couldn't say for sure, but most of the time search engines tend to count the first set of duplicate items as valid and then ignore the duplicate entries.

Secondly, the 'keyword' meta tags are of very minor importance to the major search engines these days. This is because they're so easy for people to spam. (i.e. include items are not relevant to the page and/or include the same term multiple times to try and boost their position in search results).

So no, it's not worth spending a lot of time on them. Do include them, but make sure you end some time on keywords in the title which is far more important.

Mike

[sbaker]

Hi Josie

I cannot comment on the way Actinic produces keywords, my technical team provide all the optimisation techniques, and I have to confess I am no web developer and have little knowledge of how to update Actinic and use the coding correctly.

Keywords however are important. Google does not specifically look at keywords as its main factor, however many of the other search engines use this more prominently.

I would not entirely discount the keyword tag. Most search engines look for a correlation between the head tag (keyword, title and description tag) and the content on the page. This is very relevant when ranking a website, so I suggest that you spend time on it.

If the site isnt optimised correctly however, your keyword-content relevancy could be excellent, but the lack of other optimisation techniques could hinder the site from ranking.

[sametch]

Re: Search engines

I thought it worth while to contribute, since there is a danger of people being mislead.

Originally posted by sbaker
Hi John

You are correct, Google only needs to spider the home page to rank the website. However, other engines do not work in the same way as Google, they crawl each individual page once submitted and rank it accordingly. Also, submitting each page to Google helps speed up the indexing of your site as it will inform the spider that more pages have been submitting, therefore directing it to start crawling through the other pages also.

From 5 years experience in the industry, we know the only way to ensure all your web pages rank well is to optimise them correctly, and submit them individually.

Think of it like placing an advert, the more pages you submit, the more chances you have of being seen.

It is well known amongst those who understand search engines that google uses a deep crawl robot that will find its way through your site and also there is no need to submit to google providing there is a link to your site from another site that is already listed at google. As Alan previously suggested try getting listed in ODP or Yahoo, that will provide the link you require. To take this further, there are many who suggest that google gives lower ranks to those who submit compared to those whos site it finds naturally. This unfortunately is impossible to prove, but we have never yet submitted to yahoo and yet we do reasonably well at Google.

To add further weight to this argument. Steve you mention the reason your site www.jumphigher.co.uk is not found at google is that it is simply a marketing site and you haven't submitted it to search engines.

I have some good news for you it is listed at google. Try searching for search engine optimisation where it is ranked 141 in UK and 277 worldwide or SEO where it is ranked 247 in UK.

This only goes to prove, you don't need to submit to get listed at google.

Unfortunately your ranking is not too good, which would indicate your design is not particularly well search optimised. But then with your vast experience of search engines and your 40 staff I guess you must know that.

[sbaker]

Hi Samtech

I was referring to our marketing site www.jump-higher.co.uk which we havent submitted, which I did mention in my earlier post. This will have been picked up by Google, but as it is a mirror site in effect, it wont rank it.

As I said previously, we concentrate on our clients sites and making solutions work for them, and unfortunately do not have as much time to spend on our own site as is required. When you work for over 200 customers who have daily demands, it is difficult to get a moment to concentrate on your own site! The strength of our service is proven by the track record we have with our clients.

With regards Google crawling your site, you are correct. As I explained before, the way we work is to submit our clients to Google, ensuring the Googlebot will crawl it, then track the site being indexed, rather than wait for the Googlebot to crawl it off its own back.

A well optimised site, once found by Google, will rank well. We submit the site manually, and this backs up the fact that Google will crawl your site via links from other sites. If there are no other links from other sites to your site, the Googlebot wont be able to find you, and you will have to submit your site to Google for it to rank you.

As previously stated, it would take a long time for me to explain every single factor that is used to rank a site, and also to go through each individual search engines algorithm. There are hundreds of factors used to rank a website.

Our work over the last few years has shown us that what we do works well. Many things that have been pointed here are correct, you don't need to submit to Google to rank, keyword tags are important, but not as much as the whole head tag, you dont need to submit each page etc.... These factors merely help to increase your sites ranking potential further.

Misleading people is not something we do. We are very upfront about what we do and how we work, we never spam search engines, nor do we advocate the use of cloaked tactics to gain short term rankings.

[Mike Hughes]

I was going to let this go, but then you make a statement like "misleading people is not something we do" and leave me no option but to show that you've been doing this throughout this topic.

Here are things you've said;

1. "In order to submit keywords to the major search engines, you need to first ensure that your site is fully optimised (i.e conforms to search engines rules and regulations)"

This doesn't even make sense as a) you don't submit 'keywords' to any search engines and b) there's a huge difference between optimisation and avoiding penalties.

2. "You must then manually submit all the pages on your website to the major search engines in order to ensure that your site will rank well. ".

Complete nonsense. None of the search engines require you to submit all your pages to them AND doing so gains you no advantage.

3. "What do you need to do this effectively? Assuming you already have moderate to advanced knowledge of HTML, CGI scripting and Server Side Programming, expect to invest at least 12 months of research and trials."

Again nonsense. To optimise a site based on Actinic Catalog you need no experience in either CGI scripting or Server Side Includes. You also don't need to spend 12 months in reserach and trials. Is this misleading or just plain lying. I'll let the readers decide.

4. "Once you acquire the necessary search engine optimisation knowledge, set aside approximately 30 hours per week to keep abreast of developments in the industry"

Please. 30 minutes a month at webmasterworld gives you all you need to know.

5. "If there are no other links from other sites to your site, the Googlebot wont be able to find you, and you will have to submit your site to Google for it to rank you."

Now you've just blown your credibility. Google won't rank any sites that aren't linked to by a site that's already in their index. As far as they're concerned, if you aren't linked to then you aren't worth indexing.

So, pretty much everything you've said outright has been misleading or downright wrong. There have been times when you sounded like you knew what you're talking about, but you have always been trying to deliberately mislead the people here about how difficult this is and have backtracked in each case when challenged.

I'm sorry but based on what you've been writing here, my advice would be for anyone who wants to use a service to find a reputable one. Not one that has been proven to mislead people and doesn't know what they're talking about.

Mike

[sbaker]

Hi Mike

Point by point...

1) No you dont submit keywords, I agree but you submit a site under keywords that you want to rank under, be it in the title tag or anywhere else. If your site isnt fully optimised it wont rank well, regardless of how good your keywords and tags are.

2) None of the search engines require you to submit all your pages, but it does help you increase your rankings. This is something we have found through working with our clients, and this is what I am basing my opinions on here. Actual results are the best performance criteria I feel here.

3) I wasn't specifically referring to an Actinic site here. If you want an effective internet marketing campaign including SEO, you need to do a lot of research into your target market and ensure that the area you are trying to attack doesn't suffer from market saturation. This is what we do for companies. Major firms don't have time to do all this research, and if they did it may well take 12 months if they don't use the correct resources. We have these resources to hand.

If a client has no knowledge of how to code or programme a website, how can they be expected to effectively optimise a site? This is where we consult and guide clients so they can make the best out of their internet marketing programme.

4) Webmaster world, although very useful, is not the only resource you should use. Take a look at Search Engine Watch and many of the individualsearch engine guidelines. This industry moves very quickly and if you want to keep on top of every single movement, change, algorithm adjustment, then expect to spend a lot of time. Places such as Web Master world summarise what is going on, you need to dig a bit deeper on some occasions to see what lies beneath.

5) I'm not sure I fully agree with this. Linking is not the only factor Google use to index a website. It is a main factor but not the only factor.

The basis for my points is experience. I have seen this happen with my own clients and I have seen the benefits we provide. You are quite entitle to your own opinions, and indeed this is what forums like this are about. But to comment that our service is misleading or irreputable I feel is a little harsh. We provide an individually tailored service to all of our customers. We have a very, very high renewal rate, and I think that speaks for itself.

I still maintain that SEO is a difficult area to address, and you need a specialist skill set, or a lot of time dedicated to looking into this further, to succeed. This is something that not all of our clients have and we are happy to provide them with a service that gives them the results they require.

[sametch]

Must agree with Mike. Furthermore its great to hear knowledgable advice given without any attempt to promote business.

IMHO Forums like this should be for everyone to help each other out not as an excuse to promote ones services. If we all did that this forum would cease to be an arena of help and turn into an advertising hoarding.

On point 5 that sbaker is not sure whether to agree. The point Mike is making is that Google will not list any sites that do not have links to them from another site google has listed.

To quote Mike "Google won't rank any sites that aren't linked to by a site that's already in their index. As far as they're concerned, if you aren't linked to then you aren't worth indexing."

This has been stated very explicitly many times by google, as any expert on search engines would know.

To quote sbakers advice "If there are no other links from other sites to your site, the Googlebot wont be able to find you, and you will have to submit your site to Google for it to rank you." . This is plain nonsense. If you haven't got a link to the pages in your site, according to google (who should know) they won't list it no matter how much you submit it.

[Legends]

Originally posted by cdicken
We've just put a white paper about search engines onto the Actinic web site http://www.actinic.co.uk/.

Tried to 'download now' but all i get is a blank page.

Regards

[Ben]

It downloads ok at this end. Try clicking here.

[sbaker]

Sametch

Google specifically has a Submit URL page, for people to submit their websites. If they only use links to crawl your site, why do they have such a page?

If you have a site, that has no links, from any other site anywhere on the web, and you haven't submitted your site at all, how will the Googlebot, which works on crawling through links, find your site?

The Googlebot will find your site with time I agree (as long as there are links to it or it has been submitted). We have found manually submitting the site helps index the site quicker than waiting for Googlebot to crawl it.

Google indexes over 3 billion web pages and crawls through all these invidually. If your site is down for some reason, or a link is broken, the Googlebot won't revist your site until the next time it starts a crawl, which could be over a month away.

We have found manually submitting the site is a success for all of our clients as it ensures that even if the site is down or something similar, the pages will be "in the list" to crawl when Google starts its next crawl.

[sametch]

SBaker

Some of what you are saying has value, but your reply is missing the point.

Mike said in an earlier posting that your some of your previous commects were missleading. I particular you have previously stated:

"If there are no other links from other sites to your site, the Googlebot wont be able to find you, and you will have to submit your site to Google for it to rank you."

This is not correct. If there are no links to your site, submitting will get you nowhere as any search engine expert knows.

I suggest you read the google webmasters resources listed in a previuos posting by Steve Q. In the FAQ section google is very clear, quote:

"4. Why doesn't Google index any of my pages?

If your pages haven't been indexed yet, it's probably because there aren't enough other pages on the web that link to them. Google looks at the link interconnectedness among pages, relying on the vastness and openness of the Internet to yield the most relevant search results. If other pages don't link to yours, we can't assign your pages a PageRank (our proprietary measure of a page's importance) in a reasonable way. Once other pages point to them, we'll pick your pages up."


Put simply, if you have no links to your site, they won't index it!

You can keep beleiving what you want. I will stick to trusting google.