US Actinic License Warning

[Scott-act]

SO much for the good words about Actinic....

What I received today was not a nice message...I got a threat from the US office telling me to remove the post and the ebay listing or else basically. The license is not included seperately on the CD, nor is it in the manual or on the outside of the package I received. There was no sticker on the cd jewel case or on the box preventing opening it without acceptance.

NOT ONE other software company in the United States has a license like Actinics...all allow legal transfer, Microsoft, Adobe, Macromedia, Intuit et al. I have nor have never had any developed sites nor was there ever even one operational.

there is no mechanism to print the actual EULA....anywhere.

I can understand questions and concerns...i was asked here on this forum to call a number. I sent Chris asking him nicely if he had a form I could fill out for transfer as I am in the USA. I got this phone call instead.

Type in Microsoft, Adobe, Macromedia, Intuit etc license transfer in google...they all allow it if done legally. I was told today here in my state what they ask you to do is actually illegal...but I am checking. You can't control prices or markets in the US.

Even though it's been a few months, I've asked the credit card vendor for a chargeback. You can't be expected to accept terms you can't find.

Folks that dealt with me and that I paid know I am more than fair, upfront etc. I was just shocked by the way the company handled it's business.

[David N]

Bad news

from what you have said your copy is worth $0.00

Is it that you can't transfer the ownership or you can't sell the ownership?


may be you can give it away free with a $800 pencil

how come i found this on ebay?

http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/sear...ty=MetaEndSort

[Scott-act]

Exactly....
I removed the listing and initiated a chargeback. I've purchased software packages worth $50k and have never seen such restrictions. Section 109 of US Copyright law prohibits limitations on resale. It's illegal in the UK as well.

No sites were developed with nor are any active. If they cannot spend the penny to PRINT the license before entrapping people I question their motives.

What you have to understand is the tone of this message. I was treated like a dead beat selling crack on the web. I've never stolen so much as a piece of gum in my life and I just got threatened basically by someone I bought something from?

You have to ask yourself this question....what harm does it do Actinic? What harm does it do their vendor/addon base? It expands their client list. They lose nothing.
If you buy a car you can resell it, you can resell a shirt, a CD, a book, a computer, a camera, software so long as you remove all copies....I've just never seen anything like it.

What Actinic US is doing is probably unenforceable and illegal. But I don't have the money to spend defending a frivalous lawsuit (which is where the conversation was going on the voicemail). Chris posts a nice message, I respond nicely...I didn't get a response in kind.

I reject the license agreement and believe the sale was made under false pretenses. Hopefully the credit card company sees it my way, I've already faxed them all the information. The software is intact and I will return it promptly. Not $.00001 was made off of it nor has any of it been installed.

You learn something new everyday. First impressions should have told me something about the US arm of this company. I won't get into details.

[NormanRouxel]

I know Scott and he's definitely honourable. I seems he's being treated really roughly by that US office. I hope he gets his chargeback. That'll teach them.

Norman

[Scott-act]

Thanks Norman...likewise you were most professional, honorable and most importantly knowledgable !

I have checked and rechecked their site tonight in the US. No mention of the license period...nevermind restrictions on resale. In fact there is no eula at all on their site. They say nothing about resale, nothing period. They now (didn't at the time) say NO RETURNS or exchanges once you buy the product but then how can they legally do that without specifying terms. Basically isn't that requiring acceptance of a license that you don't see until after you have the product? I'm sure that is illegal.

Actinic.com I'd suggest you revisit your US agreement...somethings quite broke


You folks have a great company and concept but you can't do what they are trying to do here in the US. Your office here is asking people to accept a license without possibility of return without seeing it!

Every other software company I checked has their EULA posted.

[Ben]

Hi Scott

I have been monitoring your first thread in which Chris Dicken responded to your request to transfer the licence, and I'm concerned about the communication that you have received since then.

You have made some interesting points about the way we handle licensing and I would like to respond. However, Actinic’s products are distributed in the US by Sure Solutions and so I would like to discuss the matter with them before I do so.

In the meantime could I ask you to email your telephone number? If at all possible, I would like to speak to you directly.

Thanks,
Ben

[Scott-act]

Ben...running out the door as we speak to the office...will email when I arrive.

Thanks for the response.

[Scott-act]

Ben, go ahead and email me at this address...I cannot find your email address...thanks

[Scott-act]

I just wanted to follow up and I can't edit the previous post...here is what I found out about US laws today.

You can't sell someone something that forces them to accept an agreement (adhesion) that they cannot see prior to purchasing and then refuse to offer refunds/returns after sale. Basically it's considered an "unfair and deceptive trade practice"....ie "buy this but we won't tell you what you are buying until after you get it but you can't return it once you buy it".

You also cannot legally tell people they cannot transfer or sell what they bought from you later. This is the 'first sale" clause of us copyright law. The only time this is even up for debate is with software leases...which this was not.

So long as the typical/printed terms of license are met in entirety and all related materials are transferred it's allowed by US Law...and UK law for that matter.

[JMK2]

I've been hunting through our files but I probably did some housecleaning and can't find the contact info at the moment...

Actinic UK may not be aware of how the US representatives operate. Years ago we were looking at marketing the product line and were placed in touch with the US agent. Our dealings were less than satisfactory so after weighing the pros and cons it came down to the 'feeling' we got from the US office and we decided not to carry the product. Had we been dealing with the UK things may have turned out different, although the terms of the license had a bearing on why we did not proceed. It certainly is the polar opposite from a product like Cartweaver in terms of the way licensing works, the latter being much realistic and perhaps a possible model for Actinic.

It is truly depressing to read this post and I really empathize for what you are experiencing Scott.

[Scott-act]

So it wasn't just my impression. It's tough to put a finger on but uncooperative, unprofessional etc come to mind.

It isn't even that their license is "unrealistic" I'm pretty darn sure it is outright illegal. Especially when you consider the "Terms" of their purchase. You can't view the license in print anywhere on the site or in the box. It's only there as part of the installer when the software tries to run and even there you can't print it nor does the software even check to see if you've scrolled to read it like many pieces of US Software do. So you can't see the license until after you open and try to install the product at which point you cannot return it as they say "all sales are final".

There are a lot of companies that could sell this product for them in the USA. I ran this by my wife who worked for two of the largest US software distributors and she just laughed. Like she said even the biggest pains on earth Microsoft wouldn't try this....Microsoft just makes it tough to transfer by not having any procedure...they don't willfully try to restrict trade.

[JMK2]

In other words, it sounds like much of what some individual said to you on the phone were hollow and unsubstantiated threats not based on any previous case law and uttered by a layman with little grounding in jurisprudence. Seems probable that when push comes to shove you've got little to worry about, and in the long run you're going to cause the UK people to take a look at things and perhaps make improvements that will benefit both parties in the long run.

Speaking of chargebacks. What is important with substantiating 'card not present' tranasactions to the issuing financial institution is an imprint and signature that matches the card signature, and acceptable versions of same may be obtained by the merchant, usually by asking the client to transmit legible facsimilies of the card surfaces and a signature bearing authorization form. The issuing bank will often try to dissuade the client from pursuing a chargeback but the bottom line is usually if the merchant cannot produce an imprint, he is out of luck if the transaction comes under dispute within 30 days of the client getting the statement. I suppose each card issuing authority has different policies so I hope the 30 day policy does not hinder you.

[Scott-act]

Chargebacks are hated by most merchants. There are fees associated with the actual chargeback too so it isn't like just losing the original sale.
In reality there is no limit on time for most chargebacks. AMEX honored one (the only one I've ever asked them to do) about 18 months after the sale because the merchant wouldn't honor their warranty. It was a chip that went bad with a lifetime warranty...I paid to ship it back...they shipped back another dead chip and then just wouldn't help. In fairness the vendor was widely becoming known at that time for being kind of a deadbeat so that probably made it easier for AMEX.

I had a friend charge back a computer a year after purchase because the major manufacturer could never resolve the problems with it. In that case the computer was returned through the manufacturer but it took the credit card company's push to get the manufacturer to agree.

I'd agree with your comments. What I got was a threat. You have to understand I wasn't asked about the auction, I got a demand to take it down and basically a long winded "kiss our a**". I was then told I could only transfer software to companies similar to mine in businesses like mine.....which is utter stupidity as most corporate charters specifically allow companies to be in all lines of business other than banking so how does Sure Solutions even enforce such idiocy?

It would be almost accpetable if they didn't hide their license agreement away until long after purchase. It's even more ridiculous when you read the stated return policy on actinic.us to see that you have to accept a license you can't see and can't return it once you see it. I'm pretty sure that isn't even lawfull.

[Ben]

We are currently looking into this and are in communication with Scott to resolve some of the communication issues and put right any inaccuracies. We are taking this seriously but would like to make sure that we are in possession of the facts before making any comment.