Paypal Express Checkout

[feemish]

I've just noticed a problem with 'Paypal Express Checkout'
If you enable this PSP you can checkout BEFORE agreeing to the terms and conditions !
I think the button is too early in the process.

Is it the same in v11?
It should be changed.

[Mike Hughes]

I always thought the whole point of paypal express was to bypass the retailers checkout and just use paypal.

If you don't want to do this wouldn't you be as well using regular paypal?

Mike

[feemish]

I do use paypal standard as well, but 90% of paypal customers choose to use the paypal express option... and yes that does mean they dont have to enter their names adresses etc during checkout, that makes it much, much faster. Sales have definately increased since I enabled it, drop outs and errors during checkout have decreased.

However I would still like to have customers agreeing to my terms and conditions ! !

The paypal express link appears before the terms and condition agreement, so in using paypal express customers can order without agreeing to them.

I thought that should be pointed out, dont you ?

I am suggesting that this needs to be considered, with the terms and conditions checkbox maybe put on the first page (or at least the ability to do that) You could then tick 'I agree' and then click on the paypal express checkout button.

[Mike Hughes]

The paypal express link appears before the terms and condition agreement, so in using paypal express customers can order without agreeing to them.

I thought that should be pointed out, dont you ?

Point out anything you like. I was just wondering why you were using a payment method that bypasses the actinic checkout if you want to use some of the features of the actinic checkout. It seems self explanatory to me.

You could put something together quite quickly using javascript. A simple solution wouldn't be too hard but it depends on how important a record of the box being ticked is.

Mike

[feemish]

Agreeing to 'terms and conditions' is something that should be agreed before checkout starts. Its important to a majority of businesses that people accept their terms and conditions !

[guccij]

You could of course put in your t&cs brochure page something like ""proceeding to checkout and completing payment means you accept these terms and conditions" and do away with the tick box.

[feemish]

good lateral thinking :-)

I wonder if that would cover you enough though.. maybe. I like the checkbox becasue you cant check out without ticking it.. so you have actually made an affirmative action. I'm not sure if just having it in the terms would have enough clout if there were problems.

It would be nice if future releases took this situation into account.

[Mike Hughes]

Maybe I'm too relaxed about this but the way I see it, if I ever have to insist a customer is bound to my terms and conditions because they ticked a box then I've lost.

Amazon never makes me tick a box saying I've read and agree to the T&Cs. Nor does ebay. In fact I can't really think of a single major retailer who does. (but then I have a bad memory about these things so they might do).

I'm pretty sure ticking a box doesn't change anything anyway. The customer rights are protected by the sales of goods acts, distance selling regulations, etc and IIRC you have to send customers your T&Cs in a 'permanent' medium with the order ( wrong word but I can't remember the details) and how many of us do that?

The funny thing is that for me, having to tick a box saying I agree to something makes me suspicious of what they might be trying to slide past me. There isn't a real (bricks & mortar) shop anywhere that makes you tick a box agreeing to their T&Cs before they'll let you buy. What makes selling online different?

Mike

PS. I know there is the returning goods for a refund issue but I've never had any issues there. Is there really anything else?

[feemish]

Yes, there are other instances.

Items 'which are personal or have hygiene implications' are not treated in the DSR in the same way other items are. You cant (for a silly example) buy some condoms online try them on then return them saying they dont fit and expect a full refund. There are lots of items like this.

I sell body jewellery. Along with the hygiene issues there are also serious heath implications in wearing body jewellery that someone else may have worn. If you try on body jewellery you cant return it.

Lots of online body jewellery suppliers have a blanket 'no returns' policy, which is legal. I dont like that, so I ship everything in clear sealy bags with a tamperproof seal. In my terms and conditions (which are short and concise) I explain the returns policy, so that a customer has read (or at least says they have read) the part where I state, if you open the sealy bag no returns.. if you dont returns are ok.

So in fact reading and agreeing to my terms and conditions is good for my customers..

[leehack]

You're right Mike, I recall reading up on the same thing. Unless you provide the T+Cs as a printed medium with the order, whatever they say online is worthless if counter claiming that the user has not followed what they say. If you have something specific to your business, then unquestionably this should be sent out with the order.

One of the problems with online T+Cs is that they can be easily changed and been as you have no record of what the customer agreed to on the day they ticked, then you can't prove anything. Has to be printed medium as I recall.

T+Cs are a bit like DSR, not a lot of people really understand what cover they get, but as with most people, common decency decides what they should do. T+Cs online are more about (IMO) telling the customer 'how we work', not what 'they must do'. Its a typically grey area though as ever.

[Duncan Rounding]

I believe 'priinted' can also include an email such as the order confirmation.

(Or 'offer to purchase' confirmation as some refer to it. In that way only when the goods are being shipped does the offer becomes a purchase to allow for any online pricing errors etc.)

[Mike Hughes]

Good. I can see there are some exceptional circumstances such as body jewellery where you might have some unique requirements to qualify for a refund (nice process by the way).

I don't know what Mark (feemish) sells but I guess my main contention was his statement that

Its important to a majority of businesses that people accept their terms and conditions !

whereas I think for most businesses

1. It's not that important
2. using a tick box isn't enough to make them enforceable without other procedures that virtually no-one follows anyway*

* Mind you, for those businesses where it is important, the tick box is definitely better than nothing as it does show you've made an effort to get the customer to read the T&Cs and if they didn't then they can't really blame you.

Mike

[guccij]

We don't use the tick box. I personally hate having to agree to terms and conditions on sites that insist on it so that's the last thing I'm going to make my customers do.

[feemish]

Amazon never makes me tick a box saying I've read and agree to the T&Cs.

No, they are more subtle. From the checkout pages in Amazon;

Please read these conditions carefully before using the Amazon.co.uk website. By using the Amazon.co.uk website, you signify your agreement to be bound by these conditions.

This is the same for most businesses as I said;

Its important to a majority of businesses that people accept their terms and conditions !

Nearly all big businesses I have looked at have something similar in their terms, (that you accept them by using the website) or they have a tickbox (more fair and open in my opinion)

If you are accepting them just by using their website, and you havent explicitly been told to read them, I feel thats underhand. Like Mike says; he didnt even think he had agreed to terms and conditions when using Amazon... Wether they would stand up if challanged in a court of law I dont know.. but the big boys are doing it.

Its much more fair to have a box where you at least aknowledge that there were terms and conditions you have agreed to, dont you think?

Besides that, as I said, I want people to read my terms so that they are aware they CAN get a refund as long as they dont try on the goods. (open the clear tamperproof bag) I get a lot of appreciation from this and I think more customers as the general rule in body jewellery is - no returns.

Anyway, using paypal express removes this ability.. for a customer to be made aware of my terms... as mentioned in the first post.

[leehack]

I like on my smartphone for instance that the T+Cs come up on screen and i have to scroll the page to the bottom to access the OK button. I like this approach for the simple fact it is the next step on from the random tick with no need to do anything and you at least know that the T+Cs were on screen for a few seconds if nothing else.

A tick with nothing else could be argued by a user that they didn't understand the process or how to read them, thought they just had to tick.

As grey as a bowl of black and white paint mixed together as ever. Suffice to say the tick alone is useless if not backed up by the other requirements, so for many businesses doing what Jules does could be argued as amounting to the same thing, i.e. whether they tick or not, you have no backup from that anyway.

I remember years ago on here a guy compaining about a return and he realised his T+Cs were incomplete, so he just filled them out, updated the site and then sent the customer to the page to show what he had agreed to. It was kind of funny but so wrong, i'm not sure we are any further on from that situation in reality.