Independent server for small company

[chris ashdown]

Haveing seen some high prices for having a dedicated server on the web, can someone say exactly what is involved is haveing your own system directly on the web

That is what permissions and licences are required, and what is the minimum equipment to have 24/7 with at least 100% backup

I understand the benifits of backup, support and backbone etc of the major players, just thinking that with the reduced costs of hardware these days sometime soon it might be worth going inhouse independant though not offering a isp service to others, but possibly a backup service to one other independent company to offer alternative server backup incase of major problems with simular backup on their server if required

I presume that the setup would be explained by the equipment supplier

What benifits would you achive or the downside and would the security software be the killer in price

At present running 7 sites using actinic none of which is very heavy in usage

[I-CC]

Dedicated is all about 'how long is a piece of string' really compared to shared hosting.

On shared, you get the maintenance and security of the server as standard, as that is the job of the hosting provider, i.e. make sure it is available and working securely as much as possible - so alot that goes on with the servers is never known about by the customers that reside within them, as they simply dont need and dont want to know about every security patch that is applied.

When it comes to dedicated for sole use or even some of these shared dedicated, it is altogether a different ball game.

Main things with dedicated is that the provider of the leased machine to you is responsible for it being available and functional for the basic role of web hosting - providing you with a default OS, basic settings, normally a control panel of some description and depending on the OS being used, automatic updates of some server elements (although not always a good thing - notice how many times a Windows Update breaks things on a desktop PC - so server ones are even more disruptive if they are incorrect (Win & Nix)).

Some dedi providers include backups to external sources, others to the same machine, or some not at all, with many providing it as an added cost service.

Hands on support for things you want doing on the server, like adding your own SSL certificates or even their own, is generally more expensive than shared from many providers.

Creating backup routines from one server to another server which is nothing to do with them is unlikely to be conducted by them, as it would entail at the very least one of the admins for the server accessing both at the command line (shell) to install backup scripts and authentication keys between the 2 machines.

Other things you need to consider if hosting it internally (on your broadband connection) is your upload speed will probably be a max of 400 or so Kbits, with broadband connections of 1, 2, 4, 8 and up broadband connection being download speeds and not upload, so this would have to be a serious consideration, as outgoing would be very slow. Likewise, if your broadband connection was down for what ever reason, then so is your sites.

Other aspects to think about are with a dedicated server, does the provider also provide backup MX (receipt and relaying) servers in the event that your server is offline or overloaded, because without those, mail could be bounced back if your dedicated is non contactable.

If the server fails, they may well have a 4, 2 or even 1 hour hardware replacement guarantee, but what about installation of the OS, hardening, updates, configuration files and then restoration of your sites backups (should they exist)? You can easily add 12 hours for a fully configured server deployment (and that is if they rush it through).

And finally, levels of management, none, partial, full or degrees of those. What if you have command line access and you break it, or if the server becomes compromised, what is the score then with having it wiped and rebuilt and what costs would be incurred by you as a result. We know of some that will charge well in excess of 650 per hour for a reinstallation of a server which is not managed fully by them, that has been broken by the user or compromised by a cracker/hacker.

The list is endless and many do not realise the impact of going the dedicated route under none or even partial managed services, well not until they get hacked or encounter issues, which at that stage it is too late and the damage is done.

This is a doom and gloom look at this, highlighting what if's and all that, but more and more servers are now hacked to be used as spam relays than any other reason nowadays, that any server attached to the net is probed and attempts made to crack it daily, so even if your websites are say all Actinic, it does not mean you can not get hacked by an exploit in PHP, because 9 times out of 10 this is a favorite entry point for many a hacker, which many dedicated users just do not even realise as they dont use it themselves.

All said and done, many dedi providers out there, cheap and cheerfull, highly specified and redundant and guess it is all down to how important is going dedicated to start with and if one went that route, what impact having a single machine and it going offline would have on the business it was serving.

Later

[RuralWeb]

I would second the above - having been a systems manager for several years I know only too well the problems that crop up (usually late at night or on a bank holiday!!). IMO its not worth the percieved savings as they will be wiped out the first time things go wrong .

[george]

Apart from cost, I think one of the main reasons for `going dedicated` is the hoped for improvement in browsing speed of the 'site. However with broadband becoming more of the norm this may not be so `crucial`?


Also have a look at Pinbrook, who do semi (ooh err) dedicated server thingys.


I'm sure Jo will be along soon anyway.


PS There is a rather excellent thread on this very forum erm, dedicated (pun intended) to the said topic.

[chris ashdown]

Thanks to all and especially Techno for the information

I had read the prev topic but that was really deciding on what isp to use for a dedicated server whilst I wondered more about being self sufficient

From the above the hardest one I think to overcome is the upload speed and I guess thats where the big boys pay big bucks, so I guess it will be a few more years before we can cut out the middle men/women!

Price variations though are very large and the old saying "you pay for what you get" is generally crap and what you buy is perceived value which is just pure marketing

If Martin looks in which isp did he go for on his dedicated server service and how did he find it worked out

[pinbrook]

Price variations though are very large and the old saying "you pay for what you get" is generally crap and what you buy is perceived value which is just pure marketing

I strongly disagree with this. Whilst it is true there are always going to be a few cowboys around offering a basic DS for alot of money, once you start comparing reputable companies it is a case of "you pay for what you get"

Techno has explained the work involved in maintaining a DS. If you opt for a semi managed server you have to pay your provider for maintanance and support (ie peace of mind), everything included in a DS should be included in the contract you sign - this is where you ensure you pay for what you get.

You can of course opt for co-locating a DS where you are responsible for maintaining the server your provider merely provides you with rack space in their Data Centre. People who go for this option tend to have their own dedicated IT staff.

Using tecno's post as a guide there's a brief list of some of the stuff you will have to configure if you go it alone (probably not an extensive list).

DNS
backup DNS
mailserver and backup
Firewall
Backup routines/restore (internal or external) (external to a 2nd Ds or tape drive)
OS (regular security patches)
Control Panel and upgrades (regular security patches)
server wide anti virus
spam filters (constant re-tweaking)
software (regular security patches) ie PHP, MySQL, cgi,

additionally how would you manage hardware failure?

what happens when you compromise the machine due to inexperience? what happens if your server gets hacked, how would you deflect a DDOS attack.

Now may be you can understand what you pay for?

[chris ashdown]

Jo get off your high horse

I did not attack anyone least of all those who replied, i mearly stated that the all mighty "You get what you pay for" is a marketing statement which means sweet FA

I am sure you will find thousands who purchased something of "Quality" which let them down in a big way

The only way to see the value is to either go to their premises and see what its all about , get a list of whats included and hope they do as they say or go on other peoples experience etc, but to believe that paying £5000 for something over another example at £500 means it's better, may well be false and does not in real terms mean its better. (it may well be, but price alone does not mean better though it can be seen as perceived better valus)

[chris ashdown]

Jo

All i originally asked was what would basically be involved in running your own server on a 24/7 basis with 100% backup. which both yourself and Techno have answered

It wasnt a challenge to providers but exploring the possible future routes people may go when equipment and software expences and ease of use allow

It does look that at present it is not viable proposition

[I-CC]

On the subject of upload speeds being the issue, you can contact BT and asked if they can provide local SDSL connections in your area, which is in effect an uncontended same up/down bandwidth speed, but it is expensive for local loops, whereas providers of hosting / dedicated are connected to the backbones via data centres connected direct to the Net, so is a different kettle of fish all toegther, so where we discuss tens and hundreds of MBit connections, BT will discuss 512kbit and up to possibly max of 10mbit connections (big maybe), so an option if you want to explore local operations for yourself.

[pinbrook]

Jo get off your high horse

I did not attack anyone least of all those who replied, i mearly stated that the all mighty "You get what you pay for" is a marketing statement which means sweet FA

My reply was not meant to be interpreted as an attack. It was simply a response to a comment I felt to be grossly unfair - ie you do not get what you pay for. My reply also started with the phrase

Whilst it is true there are always going to be a few cowboys around offering a basic DS for alot of money, once you start comparing reputable companies it is a case of "you pay for what you get"

The only way to see the value is to either go to their premises

the best way to compare like with like is to read the small print in the contract as a visit to premises is another opportunity to get fed the whole marketing spiel.

[I-CC]

Some may well have noticed that we do not advertise anything to do with Dedicated services, but that does not mean we do not provide this service, just that it is not along the lines of the mass produced services that are now ten-a-penny on the net, with that area of the Techno-Web business growth simply from direct requests and word of mouth from other dedi customers, but where 5k is seen for a single server solution as pointed out in a higher thread, which is compared to a 500 pound service, we start at 7.5k

This post is not to add to the debate of value for money for different service providers, because each and every one of them is different, us included, but what I would say is that even given the cheap cost of mass produced servers, being so cheap as rightly pointed out, a service that costs £500 has to be on the cheapest hardware possible, which brings that hardware more inline with mass produced commercial products, which when run 24/7, 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year without even a 5 minute rest, is not something I would want my business continuity (if I were running a business on such a device) to be based upon.

Just me 2 penneth worth and like say, every service has its place, cheap and cheerfull, middle of the road and high end solutions, with costs varrying across all of those, where some will charge high for a cheap server which is not value for money unless they are managing it all and others bits, where others charge cheap and rely on the hardware warranty and the grace of god that things will not go wrong with the machine.

Big world out there for dedicated - and no one unless they have used the service and encountered problems can say for certain if a service is under priced, over priced or just right until it happens to them.

Did you look at BT for an SDSL price BTW?

[chris ashdown]

Just been looking on the net to check out some prices and services

Three big ones stand out

UKFAST who offer a 24/7/365 phone service who state their service phone will be answered in 3 rings by a technician who works on the system.

Netcetera who state
24x7x365 Server Monitoring - checks to ensure your server is available on the Internet from a remote location. We can set it up so that it eMails or even sends you an SMS message if there are problems

Fasthosts
Owning a Fasthosts dedicated server is worry free, thanks to our comprehensive technical support.
Our technical support website features knowledge base articles dealing with all common dedicated server issues. What's more, our UK based support team is available by phone and email 24x7.

Others just say 24/7 support

As a present Fasthosts customer admittidly not on the dedicated server but their service is good but maybe up to a hour call waiting if call is at wrong time

UKfast is the only one to really put its neck on the line,

Service means different things to different people and some of the other 24/7 may well offer even better services, unfortunately you cannot sort them out by price as it's only part of the equasion and the rest of the offer is near impossible to compare side by side

[I-CC]

We are not the best for spell checking our own sites (blush), but anyone come across a Dual Intel P4 Xeon before? Its either a P4 or its a Xeon hehehe..

But, main reason for this reply is - each has there own specs of server and specs of service, which makes it near enough impossible to match like for eact like, so self build tables to try and create a comparison might be in order if Dedi was the route for you.

[chris ashdown]

Did you look at BT for an SDSL price BTW?

Many thanks for the input

No I did not, as your first reply really gave me the answer that it was not practical to go this route; and Jo confirmed it that the only practical route was a managed server

Unfortunately this then brings up the unanswerable question of who is best? which I will not ask

[I-CC]

Unfortunately this then brings up the unanswerable question of who is best? which I will not ask

That would be a can of worms LOL

All the best.