css tableless design

[jont]

I was hoping to get something under my belt first though

me also ... best prepared and all that .....

[pinbrook]

alot can happen in 2 weeks.... like crashing my pc ten milion times and losing all my hair

[RuralWeb]

thankfully we have the design day to look forward too.

I will have my laptop hooked up and waiting for the posts

[dscontroller]

Sounds like fun all this. I've just downloaded the programme so look forward to the fun, or otherwise!!

Thought I would read up on what everyone else is doing, pick out the positive bits and go!

There are sure some interesting posts for v8, but haven't found the GO bit yet!

You've got to admit that the boys at Actinic have made it pretty interesting.

David

[cdicken]

How do I change say the TopLevelSectionLink to use css layout and not tabled?

Which theme are you working on? Basically you can go to 'Settings | Site Options | General' and set the 'Top Level Section List Layout' to anything other than 'Standard Top Level Section List'.

Alternatively, use 'Standard Top Level Section List' then go to the 'Design' tab.

Click on one of the links in the list then click the 'Navigate to Parent Layout' button on the toolbar below the layout code (yellow spiral with up arrow).

You should then be in the layout called 'Standard Top Level Section List' (if not, click the navigate to parent button again).

Click the 'Edit List Layout' button.

Remove the table code from the 'Start of List' and 'End of List' fields in the 'Overall Design' tab, and then remove the <tr> and <td> code from the 'Edit Rows and Columns' tab. You might want to put <br />s (or similar) in the 'After' fields.

[cdicken]

Jo

hopefully if actinic are listening they will be able to offer a cleaner solution.

As I mention in my other post, I think it is probably possible to improve this, and I am looking at this today.

As a rule of thumb, just edit the 'Actinic Stylesheet' layout as this will change the 'actinic.css' file.

Basically, the thinking behind the two files is
'Actinic Stylesheet' is styles for general design items that can be used in any theme
'theme.css' contains style information to help the design work with teh images that cone with a particular theme
Any inline styles are for making sure a specific overall page layout works correctly.

[cdicken]

Separate button folder is neat, although using it has crashed the software a few times. {EDIT} I tell a lie, somehow i managed to get it so everytime I try to change the colours actinic crashes. I created my own set of buttons and they were sitting in a folder in the buttons folder, I changed button sets, a few times before I got it to take properly. The end result was a change of colour scheme also (not requested) and subsequent attempt to return to my chosen colour scheme or any other colour scheme crashes {/EDIT}

The issues with changing colours is a known problem that has been fixed. Please though make sure you report ANY problems to v8beta@actinic.co.uk otherwise we are not going to know about them and not going to be able to improve the software in time for release.

[cdicken]

I have also just found that if you try and change the css within Actinic you can only use absolute sizing ie px not small, smaller etc.

eg the variable smallfontsize uses 11px when it need to be small. The dropdown only gives px options

Malcolm - you can change these in 'Site Options | General | Appearance'.

[cdicken]

Side-stepped years of knowledge,

I have a rule with software - if I cannot gain a working knowledge of it within a few hours then its either too complex or not for me.

v8 is different from v7.

There are new concepts to learn, granted, but there is a guide available which will step through all the new concepts, with exercises, and help you to understand how v8 has changed. Then you should find it much easier to try upgrading/editing your own designs with v8.

So there's a learning curve, but it's a much smaller one that with v7. Remember how long it took to get your head around templates and NETQUOTEVARs? It will not take anywhere near that to understand layouts and variables.

On a sidenote, I agree about the point about having a css file in the 'Site1' folder, and we are looking at that at the moment, but for now there is a workaround to help with that.

[RuralWeb]

Malcolm - you can change these in 'Site Options | General | Appearance'.

Found that but it will only allow you to use absolute sizes ie px, what is needed is the option to use relative ie small, smaller, large etc

[pinbrook]

or percentage sizes and other relative sizing options

don't forget there in a difference in the way some browsers render small, smaller etc

[cdicken]

don't forget there in a difference in the way some browsers render small, smaller etc

This is why I went for pixel values - I hate the fact v7 Actinic stores look different on IE than they do on Mozilla.

You can add % and em values into the fields in 'Site Options | General'. It is just the drop down list of sizes in the preview window toolbar which are fixed point sizes.

As a side note (and a discussion point) do you not think that any internet users who require larger text sizes would use a browser that implements it properly (i.e. anything but IE). I'd be interested to know your thoughts.

[pinbrook]

As a side note (and a discussion point) do you not think that any internet users who require larger text sizes would use a browser that implements it properly (i.e. anything but IE). I'd be interested to know your thoughts.

I have a close friend who although he is registered blind he can make out shapes. He uses software called Supernova to magnify the screen, and can get to supernova to talk to him too. So the broser itself is largely irrevelant.

This is why tableless design is important as supernova looses its way through table cells.

Additionally I think there are too many users out there who are self taught and prefer to stick with what they know even though it is sub standard. When they call in help it isn't always the best help.

[RuralWeb]

use a browser that implements it properly (i.e. anything but IE

As jo says those in the know use screen readers but the vast majority use ie so you need to go with that. I agree that sites will look different in different browsers but many click away when they see small text.

With the population aging this is going to be a big issue I think.

[cdicken]

With the population aging this is going to be a big issue I think.

I've done some research and it looks like IE7 has a page zoom feature, which will resize all text, so it soon won't really matter whether your text is in pixels or relative. Hurrah!

Also, interestingly, the page zoom seems to not work that brilliantly with images in tables, so it's another reason to lose tables for layout.