Fed up.

[Jane]

Lets hope v9 is not another quantum leap from v8

I'm not sure I will still be using Actinic when Version 9 comes around. I am currently having to swap between versions 6, 7 and 8 and sometimes different versions of each of those depending on whether the client has upgraded their version or not. I feel like Version 8 is a new programme which if I was testing out of the box I would have put back by now - nothing about it seems intuitive - that can't be good design.

[leehack]

This is a normal human feeling towards change and there were many on this forum feeling the same 6 months ago. Once you get to grips with it, it becomes second nature, although going back to V7 would be horrendous now.

[Simon Williams]

Thanks for that guys.

I have lost all confidence with Actinic, and feel very nervous when using it. Agreed, some of the problems I have faced have been down to a lack of knowledge and familiarity with the package. However, suffering crashes, sites disappearing, nightmare CSS code that feels like wading through mud, and all the 'work arounds' really leaves me with an empty feeling when I've spent so much money.

I have no similar product on my PC makes the hardest work possible out of a package that is supposed to help. If I had, I would uninstall it and demand a refund. I've got bookmarked.

I have three e-commerce sites in development at the moment, and have put a hold on all new work because of the 'learning curve', which is often no more that flat lining.

If Actinic didn't have this forum, they would be stuffed. They would not be able to support the amount of posts they get here in their offices. I feel that although these places are the best (a bit like going to Alcoholics Anonymous, "Hi ... I'm Simon, and I use Actinic") , it's an excuse for the developers to sit on their hands and say, "They'll sort it out in the forums".

Anyway, rant over -- I've got work to do, and no doubt I'll run into some of you guys here in the early hours of the morning abusing the search facility, like a fine malt whiskey.

Simon

[RuralWeb]

"They'll sort it out in the forums".

Interesting you should say that because last year on one of the very few ocassions I used support they asked if I had heard of the forum and I might be best asking there

abusing the search facility, like a fine malt whiskey

. Nice to hear that Simon at least there is one designer on the forum who is using the forum correctly.

[Simon Williams]

Interesting you should say that because last year on one of the very few ocassions I used support they asked if I had heard of the forum and I might be best asking there

Now why doesn't that surprise me Malcolm?

[jont]

I have three e-commerce sites in development at the moment, and have put a hold on all new work because of the 'learning curve', which is often no more that flat lining.

You are doing well then ... alot of users curves are showing a downward trend

The merger of an e-commerce package with what is essentially a web design package (the design tab) has made for a monster piece of kit which once you know and understand is fantastic, if you don't need to progress past a default theme is fantastic .. it is the middle ground that seems to be catching a lot of users... especially those upgrading from v6 and v7 who have dabbled in editing HTML but are not seasoned coders or spend 23 hours a day on the forum.

I have been using v8 (alongside v7) since the Alpha testing and have only just started (this side of Christmas) to feel really confident in what can be achieved in v8 ... this is from months of playing with code and trashing sites in MultiSite .. alas not everyone has this luxury.

v8 is like a new pair of walking boots ... painful at first but after a while you become close friends and will take you just about anywhere you need to go (marketing can pay royalties if they wish to use that quote )

[Simon Williams]

You are doing well then ... alot of users curves are showing a downward trend

The merger of an e-commerce package with what is essentially a web design package (the design tab) has made for a monster piece of kit which once you know and understand is fantastic, if you don't need to progress past a default theme is fantastic .. it is the middle ground that seems to be catching a lot of users... especially those upgrading from v6 and v7 who have dabbled in editing HTML but are not seasoned coders or spend 23 hours a day on the forum.

I have been using v8 (alongside v7) since the Alpha testing and have only just started (this side of Christmas) to feel really confident in what can be achieved in v8 ... this is from months of playing with code and trashing sites in MultiSite .. alas not everyone has this luxury.

v8 is like a new pair of walking boots ... painful at first but after a while you become close friends and will take you just about anywhere you need to go (marketing can pay royalties if they wish to use that quote )

Thats all well and good Jon, but I don't like walking!

I want to pay for, and invest, in software that will take my business forward, and not increase my level of anxiety. I'm really glad that I'm not those porr users who have upgraded to v8 and are having real problems.

As for the default themes. They are terrible. There isn't a single theme on there that I would be happy to present my clients with. They lack any level of design or imagination at all -- but I agree with you, if you use one then you'll be fine. However I want more flexibility than that. Let's face it, were all talking Web2 now, but these designs are 15 years out of date.

I have mastered many different software packages, and more convoluted (including CS2) in less time than it has taken me to even get slightly to grips with Actinic (6 months or so). They also don't crash or have a beta feel about them.

[RuralWeb]

I have mastered many different software packages, and more convoluted (including CS2) in less time than it has taken me to even get slightly to grips with Actinic (6 months or so).

I said the exact same thing in July last year - I have a rule that says if I cannot master a piece of software in 1 week then its not for me. I broke this big style with V8 and I told Chris B when he called me in August that others will have big problems.

[george]

It does look like theres a lot of folk taken on v8 and managed to upgrade though? I mean the `little people` who have upgraded their own websites, maybe their limits aren't too complex though? (Not meaning to be cheeky to anyone here).

[RuralWeb]

It does look like theres a lot of folk taken on v8 and managed to upgrade though

True - if the site is not too far from standard then the upgrader works VERY well. Some sites I have done the V7 site is converted in a few minutes with no problems at all.

The problems come when there has been lots of custom work done or you want to make big changes to the upraded site. EVERY site is different and you will only find out when you put your site through the upgrader.

[jont]

It does look like theres a lot of folk taken on v8 and managed to upgrade though? I mean the `little people` who have upgraded their own websites, maybe their limits aren't too complex though? (Not meaning to be cheeky to anyone here).

The "little people" ... George's words not mine ... are most likely OK as they have most likely not modified their v7 site that extensively and v8 does a brilliant job of converting "vanilla v7" sites into v8 compliance. I have upgraded several sites from v7 into v8 ranging from almost default themes to complete re-designs and all have come through in a better shape than expected.

[george]

IMHO, the worst bit is, at the moment we know and TRUST v7. I've grown up with it, I've learnt so much that I can do myself alterationwise. Theres a lot of people in the same wee boat as I am, maybe I'm fighting their corner as well as my own I dunno. I look through the v8 forum daily, reading about failed snapshots, uninstalling, freezing... need I go on?

When I want to alter something, its, erm, all I want to do. We cannot put our ongoing stable websites at risk (for whatever reason).


The boots won't help when your standing in the middle of a minefield called v8 with a minute to get out.*


*Does that work? (lol)

[jont]

The boots won't help when your standing in the middle of a minefield called v8 with a minute to get out.*

<actinic variable="Running Shoes" /> is what you need

[leehack]

One of the main points looked over in this IMO is that, yes a standard theme upgrades well, however as previously stated without modifying them, they are poorly designed, so you are forced to. Therefore the upgrade process works great on standard templates, but few use them as they are poor templates.

Too many people have had problems upgrading for actinic to hide behind "the upgrade process works well" or "in extensive tests, they have upgraded fine". Its quite clear that the testing team was a joke and that the upgrade process, if you have amended the layouts (who on earth doesn't) is quite poor. There are not 1 or 2 of us, that recommend a clean install and start again, there are a vast amount.

They launched a piece of software that had very little put into the upgrade process and we have all had to overcome that lack of time and investment in that area.

Its not rocket science, although they would seem to make it that way. Simply ask the top 20 posters on your forum to test an upgrade for them and repeat back. Offer 100 quid for each one you try, if 20 people had done this, it would have cost them 2 grand and undoubtedly would have resulted in a far better solution and FAR less bad press - great value.

Software companies and IT departments across the world fail so miserably continuously as they fail to speak to the people for whom they are designing. They get so wrapped up in the new exciting features, they forget the basics - the users or the customers. If the development department of actinic havnt had a rocket put up their arse over this debacle, then their manager certainly should have by now.

9 months down the line, we now have something that is good with a lot of problems ironed out, IMO it was released 6 months too early and at a shocking time of the year. It stinks of lets rush it and get it out before christmas. The PR on V8 must have really disappointed them, however they are on their way back and i personally think that NOW, (not then) we have a good package for the price.

[fleetwood]

Having started my journey with 8 a lot later than many of you, I have to say that I'm happy with what I have experienced so far - one week in from hands on 8.

I haven't attempted to upgrade my V5 site (which had been reasonably well modified over a 3 year period), but instead started from scratch, and simply dropped my V5 database into 8 for the products.

My approach has been to delve into the code, rather than play with the miriad of variables available, and I have to say that once you get on the right wavelength, finding your way around the templates is far easier than the 'old way'.

As I started with the aim of a fairly table free outer layout (as seemed to be the recommendations of those in the know ...) the biggest frustration I have had over this last week is learning the css.
Using an excellent book recommended by Jonty, I think - "Integrated HTML and CSS", I have been learning css whilst dabbling with the Actinic layouts.
Css is great! Cross browser adoption of css is not great - and HUGELY frustrating (IE makes your 'stuff' go one way - FF another!).
However, thats not Actinics fault.

Anyways, I'm not yet at the stage of order testing, but just wanted to counter some of the negativity towards V8.
I'm finding building the site a rewarding experience, and the amount of flexibilty, if you can afford the time to learn how to use the software to its fullest, is great.
The pre-built templates are pretty cack.
The stylesheets as provided are completely bloated, due to trying to be everything to everyone.
Much of the new functionaility 'seems' not to have been fully tested before launch.
...and the launch of V8 itself was a PR joke, which I think management would have to admit.
But somewhere deep inside it all, I think there is a decent bit of kit.

I'm a programmer, rather than a designer, and am happy ploughing through manuals, and source code, to see how things tick.

Its not for everyone - but I like it