how to live together in harmony

[pinbrook]

Ah Good, at last we have an "end user".

We aren't here to pick on you, but here to gather info from the "other side".

Nobody is going to complain if you ask dumb questions in the forum, as it is up to us whether we reply. But you will always find that there are people who will always help those who help themselves. You'll be suprised at how much knowledge you will pick up in a short amount of time, and in 6 months will be quite confident.

From time to time there are postings from people who don't bother to think about the problem before they post and then expect a blow by blow solution to the issue. I have to admit that normally I pass these by, but that is my choice.

I regularly get PMs asking for detailled instructions how to do something, some of these would take me a hour to reply to and then I could expect numerous follow ups. Again with these direct pleas for help I reply to say Sorry, I can't help. If the same question was posted to the forum I might feel inclined to reply, but I may not.

You could argue that by helping someone out I may get repeat paid for business, but to be honest I have to turn work down on a regular basis due to time constraints so I'm not fussed about these types of leads. But I do have the luxury of a decent reputation (I hope!) and a business built on working with Actinic since 1998. I am one of those people who believe that everything is a 2 way process - just because someone wants to pay me doesn't mean that I'm going to bite their hand off for the business. Just the same as going for an interview for a job, there have been occaissions when I have been offered a job and turned it down much to the agency or potential employers aggravation - they can't quite graps the concept that I have a say in the selection process too.

As a result of this thread I have had a few ideas how to manage things, I always have sent out very detailled quotes which outline the ecommerce requirement. I am now going to add a few general terms and conditions re the amount of time a client has to approve the work (again from experience I had a client who messed around with his site, never made it live and still expected support 2 years later) I think 14 days is reasonable. Ans also terms about support after that time span.

any other ideas how to tighten up T&Cs?

[Spark]

Response to Bill's question - this goes back to a lack of budget. I've aksed about Actinic cover but as I understood it - the cost of the cover will only cover you for 10 queries during the course of a year. Actinic suggested that the majority of customers probably only needed support during the initial set-up phase, which is why their product cover only covers the first 30 days. I sort of agree and would apply the principle in the same way if I were able to go the developer route. I would suggest that a very detailed specification form the basis of any initial contract that sets out exactly what the developer is contractually agreeing to provide in terms of a site. Although clients may know their business quite well, developers need to bear in mind that their client's understanding of what website can and will do is limited (websites are not their business that's why they've come to you). If they can give you a good indication of what their functional requirements are, together with the feel they hope to achieve and the asthetic appearance they'd like to create for their company, that's a good starting point but to avoid the inevitable free add-on's that will cost you in time as a developer, it's got to be a two way process. Once you've heard what they think they want and queried as many other possibilities as you think they might need write a costed spec. which itemizes the various elements. If clients alter their requirements from those set out in the original spec, it will be obvious to them and to you that their changes will incur revised costs. Likewise, for cover - as a client, I'd expect that once I'd agreed that the product was what I'd asked for (test period or something) and I'd had the general maintenance (uploading / adding stock etc) issues explained. Any additional questions or cover after a certain period of time would incur agreed charges. I've got British Gas cover - if anything at all goes wrong I'm covered, there are no call out charges, no hourly rates - I've paid for and expect cover when I need it. I've also got a photocopier, I've not taken out cover - if it goes wrong there is an initial call out charge and each hour that an engineer works on it will cost me money. As I know this already and have factored in the costs of each, I pay for and get exactly what I'm expecting. Service and support contracts need to be clear so that there is no room for misunderstandings. If after setting out clear terms you choose to provide over an above the agreed level of service that you are contractually obliged to clients will just see this as a one off added bonus.

In short - I would prefer that charges weren't built in - if you show design, installation and cover charges seperately then it is clear that they are seperate services. These can then be better fitted to your clients needs and budgets with their full understanding of what they're getting for what they've paid.

[delboy]

Hi Sonia,

You raise many valid points and your experience is typical of many (including me I should add). When I first purchased Actinic I was surprised at their initial 30 day support policy. Even if you're familiar with HTML Actinic is a big system and it takes time to figure your way round. How many people when they first receive the software, can drop everything else that's going on in their daily lives and focus solely on building a web site - not many individuals I suspect. So I believe 60 days initial support would be more realistic for a product like Actinic.

I personally don't like hype but when you're selling a product it appears mandatory. "Buy this and you'll have your site up and running in hours .... " Excuse me, that may be true for ex employees of the company that developed the product but for the average person (especially one with no html experience), I don't think so! However, if you're selling, you sell and claim what you can for the product without telling absolute porkies ... you may stretch the truth a little, but you sell.

This may sound like I'm having a real go at Actinic but I'm not. Actinic has something going for them that not many other ecommerce software providers have .... this forum and their user community. I almost came across this forum by accident and it's such a plus point for the product that they really should put it in bold on their box (haven't seen the V7 box so maybe they have). The other thing is that Actinic have answered my support queries (ok you have to wait in the 48 hour holding tank but at least you do get replies) even without a support contract.

The spirit of this forum is unique and a tribute to all that contribute because of the quality of the assistance provided and the spirit in which help is given (not to mention the Actinic staff who are always there to throw a lifebuoy when it's needed).

So Sonia, if you have questions, ask. There's a lot of experience on here and I suspect even Actinic have learnt things about their product courtesy of this forum.

Best of luck with your site.
Delboy

[compendia]

As another self taught end user I'd like to add a few points.

1. Asking stupid questions and having nothing to give.

I try to give as much as possible to the ecommerce forum, while taking from the support forms because I know my weakness. I would feel nervous offering technical support even on something I'd acheived because I'm never convinced I'd got it right. However, I try to give back back on site critiques because all opnions are valid ones. Its up to that webmaster which comments are relevant and applicable, I would urge all new users to start out by doing this.

2. People emailing pinbrook for support.

Rather misses the point of the forum, which is that we all learn from each other's problems. I've had fantastic advice from people here to posts that I've written but I've also learnt loads from searching the forums and reading that other people have been through exactly what I have.

3. Asking stupid questions without trying.

Believe me I've tried. I never post to the forum or ring any support until I am about to gouge out my own eyes with frustration. But often my questions are simple ones, its just that I couldn't find the answer. Though I do accept that some people aren't willing to learn. Perhaps you should begin by asking people 'what have you tried so far' if they say 'nothing' then give them a couple of tips and let them explore. Sometimes we users don't know where to start.

4. Upgrades and patches.

Developers have to admit that they release software that doesn't work. If you are (one is) a complete novice its very frustrating to spend hours trying to fix something that you presume is your own fault only to ring support and find out its a known problem. How would you feel if you bought a new car and took it back to receive the answer 'third gear's always been a bit of a problem'. This is one of the reasons why developers and users need an ongoing relationship.

5. Support who dodge responsibilities. Or don't know.

I have had problems where hosting tell me its actinic and actinic tell me its hosting. I don't know that I would ever know enough to work out who is wrong.

6. Support who are rude. And lie.

I've never had that from actinic but recently I had a very bad week which involved support staff who were just terrible and did lie to me about what was happening. Still trying to work up the energy to complain and move my business. I realised during this that my hosting company are effectively the gatekeepers to my entire web business, of course, this is obvious but because they've always been good in the past what would happen if they started to be awful never occured to me. But I won't be buying my own server and doing my own hosting. Does that make me the same as someone who won't configure their own email? Where do we draw the line?

I would say that expect a level of after sales support from all the companies I deal with, from IT to the window cleaner. In general I would always choose to pay for the 'ring us when you're in a panic' option of support. Because when I panic, I really, really panic. When your whole company isn't working, it can be difficult to think logically and work out what's gone wrong.

In the end I think IT contracts will always be difficult to administrate. They are complicated. The developer has to lead and be very firm to kill unreasonable expectations.

Switch it off and then switch it on again. Why does that work (but it does, most of the time).

a last plea - can we think in short paragraphs please long ones hurt my eyes.

cheers,

[Sally Dickson]

Point taken

Sorry about that.

[Darren B]

Hi All

I like Megan am a self taught "IT give it a go person" When at school i think there was a computer somewhere but i apparently was not clever enough to be in the stream, anyway i started playing with pc's before windows came around, funny amstrad actually lauched the first type of windows, and we did everything by DOS, and i used it mainly for games but it got my foot in the door and my interest has never wained.

Enough of the early story of my life

I first brought actinic at V5, a few years ago and it made me look amazing in my bosses eyes as i turned my first information website into an online shopping site. I have explained many times that without the support of this community i would not have the little extras working on the site that i do. So i only take credit when credit is due, also he would start to ask me to do even more complex stuff, so it helps to balance my work load.

I also worked on the V7 beta for lennie norris before it was released, not sure if the feed back i gave was what they where looking for but I gave to them in layman terms, which brings me to my next point

plain english, i have to take steps back when talking to my staff across 2 branches when i see this glazed look appear in there eyes, fortunately i have learnt to look for this "what is he talking about expression" and try and adjust accordingly. However i also suffer this when i am talking to people, but i have now learnt to say "stop" what do you mean when i get to the point of being lost, but not many people do this as they feel they may look stupid - i society to blame??

However - phones/email - Unfortunatley when ringing a technical support line or emailing requests we do not have the luxury of seeing the person and understanding that they got the "glazed look" 30 seconds into the phone conversation, but we should look for the silence as this is a good sign or the email has wandered off in a different direction. At this point you soon under stand the technical abillities of the user. The art is not in so much in being able to resolve the problem but also understanding the ability of the user.

Start to high and the user will be forever ringing as they never really understood the first time. Start to low and your risk insulting your customer

Maybe before undertaking various IT work there should be a simple questionaire for the customer to help the IT professionals to understand the competance level of there customer you never now it could make a differance

As Jo from pinbrook is aware when i let someone use space on my site, caused a couple of problems with emails.

Hope these thoughts add some input

Darren

[Luddite]

The person that built my site is no longer operating, which means that my only sources of assistance are this forum and my host, who are actinic specialists - I don't pay them to support me though. I fully realise that my relationship with the forum is extremely one-sided but I do try to contribute to non-techie threads where possible.

Anyway, to get back to the thread, I am a full-time shopkeeper - I am in my shop 6 days a week and I have a PC on my counter from which I run my actinic site. I would love to be able to spend more time working on my website and get top grips with html but I only really have time to add/remove products and process orders. Testament to this is the amount of questions i've asked on this forum - had good replies - but then not made the changes.

As you all know - retail is in a really bad way at the moment, which means that theres not a lot of money coming in. However I wouldn't for a moment consider it fair to ask a developer to do any work on my website for free.
I think that it would reasonable for developers to operate abit like coffee shops, by offering regular customers free coffee every now and again. I've got lots of people that regularly come into my shop but to my knowledge have never bought anything - i'm not going to give them a free cushion just for coming in, but I regularly give a small discount to my regular paying customers. Its good to keep these people sweet.

If I were to use a developer - and I will need to at some stage soon, I wouldn't expect to understand every single thing that they do - I would expect to understand, in plain english what the result of their work will be though. I would also need any work done to be carried out in a way that will be editable by myself in photoshop. Within a certain time frame I think it would be reasonable for the developer to offer support on their work.

Additionally - If other end users are anything like me - they would be completely knackered without this forum. I don't have the budget to pay for advice - but i'd be more than happy to offer discounts on my website to anyone helping me out and I'm sure other end users would do the same.

Nick

[chris ashdown]

My gripe is the poor standard of paperwork that is called the operating manual. Most are written by the programmers or IT department and are written by someone who knows how the program is expected to work and what logical inputs are required.

The purchaser with no knowledge of the software tries to follow the manual and comes unstuck at chapter 2 because he is reading literally what is written whilst the author is using inside knowledge

Software companies should send out their software to outside technical writers to write the manual but save money by going in-house.

With Actinic in point how often are the manuals updated, yet the forum is full of problems and answers that should be included or at least mean a clearer re-write of the manual

Ask yourself why the customer is asking the question and how can I avoid it in future and you have solved the problem

[wjcampbe]

I have to defend Actinic here - I think they do a tremendous job.

Typically it can take four months from submittal of the first documents to a printer to receiving the final proofs and starting a publication run. That forces the company to put a manual to print while the software is still in development.

Right through that process, parallel beta testing is ongoing and changes that are not included in the manual have to be made to keep functionality and even add features heavily requested in the beta process.

Actinic include information on this late functionality in their on-line knowledge base, they provide a downloadable design guide, a downloadable advanced guide, they have an extremely comprehensive in-built help system that is unfortunately not optimally indexed, and they provide hosting for and live help on these forums.

They provide telephone support - at a price, and email support free of charge.

There are very many major software houses who come far short of this, indeed I purchased several products this week from a Microsoft reseller (Server 2003, 70 cals, Exchange Server, 70 cals, ISA, Office 2003, XP Pro - not one hard copy manual in the lot).

The only product I can compare Actinic to is dBASE. The user community there was locked out of the company servers while a restructuring took place - what did they do? They launched their own hosted support newsgroups and continued peer support. Since the official support newsgroups came back online, the people with the most knowledge to impart have shared themselves on both the official and the unofficial peer support newsgroups.

I've been with dBASE since 1980 - 25 years. I'd like to say the same about Actinic in 2029.

[buspassjohn]

Jo,
the way that we pay for support and updates on our Epos system, with a monthly subscription, seems lie a fair way to charge for ongoing work when needed.
The charge covers all downloadable updates and telephone/email support if required, in practice maybe one or two quick phone calls a year.
If a client wishes to pay a supplier peanuts, they should expect to get nothing but monkeys, everyone in the private sector has to earn a living, not be given it free.

I think part of the problem is the promotion of on line retail as being easy to set up and a cheap alternative to bricks'n'mortar retail, encouraging people with no experience and very limited resources to set up with a copy of Actinic and a computer in their bedroom. They then find they need someone with knowledge to develop a decent site, but have no finance to pay a proper price to a professional.

Having been in business for more years than I care to remember (when a computer was the size of your average Superstore!) I find that you usually get what you are willing to pay for (with certain individuals excepted) and cannot see any problem in Designers charging for their initial work with an ongoing licence fee to support that work.

Sorry to ramble on, there is surely enough work out there without doing it for free, if somebody wants to get free help this forum is the most excellent tool they could use.

My simple advise to anyone wishing to set up an online store is , if you don't think you can afford it, don't do it.

[chris ashdown]

Bill

I am not just getting at Actinic but all companies who write software and then find they are swamped by questions on how to get it to work as expected.

How many problems mentioned on this forum for V7x over the last year have been given a mention in the latest manual, I bet not many, yet if you look at the forum there are 800 threads under just "initial web site" and how many months is it since they restarted this forum with new software.

Agreed most are probably about using different providers, but that makes the point why so much trouble in this area, is the manual supplied and the help files giving enough information and could they for example either show the settings for the top 20 providers or improve the network settings page to make it more intuitive in area's where most people have problems

[chris ashdown]

By the way Bill, I must say that yourself and others like Norman,and the rest who regulary answer the problems on this forum spending many hours solving other peoples problems, do a great job and my own personal thanks to you all

[jont]

Agreed most are probably about using different providers, but that makes the point why so much trouble in this area, is the manual supplied and the help files giving enough information and could they for example either show the settings for the top 20 providers or improve the network settings page to make it more intuitive in area's where most people have problems

The vast majority of network issues are due to the providers and the settings for their servers. When I first purchased Actinic I found a list of recommended hosts on the main site - made contact and eventually selected CLARA who emailed me a complete list of configuration settings which worked first time. Brilliant.

With a global market chosing the top 20 providers would be a strain and you can bet your bottom dollar the configuration settings would change at the providers end after a new update or server install - having old info for a server would only compound the issue further.

This is really like the OP - I prefer to pay more money to a company I know will host Actinic and provide the support (I know CLARA has its knockers) when I need it - I could pay a minimum amount per annum with little support and no Actinic support and spend hours on forums trying to get it to work - in this instance I prefer to pay my money for relative peace of mind.

I believe Actinic should raise the profile of this forum - I only stumbled across it by accident searching for something else - more links from the main website etc. There is a huge wealth of exsiting knowledge on here and always someone around to help out.

[pinbrook]

there are 800 threads under just "initial web site"

800 threads probably isn't bad, considering the number of OS s there are, and PC manufacturers and router hardware, ISPs, etc etc

The wrong combination of the above and bingo you have a problem.

Restricting the choice is unrealistic, as everyone has a different budget.

John - everything you say is true, I've just got to start putting all these ideas into good use.

[chris ashdown]

You are still missing the point, you can either give your time for free, Charge them someway and always have more questions, or really sort out the problem by giving them all the information you can at the start of the contract

A lot of work and effort agreed but solve the problem and you dont have to worry about rest