how to live together in harmony

[pinbrook]

And in the real world that doesn't work....

It is all down to expectation....and generally the people who pay the least expect the most.

It is easy for me as a developer to produce a site on a shoestring budget so that the job falls within the clients budget. Then comes the fall out as the client didn't have the knowledge when commissioning the work to understand the exclusions.

Here's an example- 2 months after release...
the classic why doesn't my site rank highly in SEs,
the answer to that is, well you didn't have the budget to ask me to do that.
Oh but I thought it was included, I think you are ripping me off because wyou want more money from me, I'm going somewhere else.

[Mike Hughes]

The problem everyone faces in this area is that most small businesses don't know what they want (and don't want) and many in the design field expect the customer to specify what they want done and then price it accordingly.

As someone with a background in marketing products and services I would tend to recommend the traditional approach. Offer base, intermediate and top spec services (or 'bronze', 'silver', 'gold' etc, call it what you want).

There some good reasons to do this:

1) It spells out what's included (and also isn't included) in any particular service level. People like to know what they're getting for their money.

2) Those with a real budget constraint can still get a quality result. It just isn't as comprehensive as the other services offered.

3) It shows people what they get when they spend a bit more. Customers often choose the cheapest quote because they don't know what they'd be getting for the higher ones. Give them some good reasons to spend more and they'll often do so.

As John says, I'd also charge a small monthly fee for ongoing support and advice. Build it into your contract for the at least 6 months as both you and your clients know they're going to need it.

Mike

[pinbrook]

Yep loads of good ideas here.

along with tighter terms and conditions I like the idea of bronze, silver and gold, I think that will help with the expectation issues.

[TraceyHand]

very interesting thread.
As a customer of pinbrook, past and present, I'd like to think I don't cross the line when it comes to "after-sales service"
Each time we've done business (design-wise) I may contact about issues for a certain period but, in the whole, even though Pinbrook has (re)designed 2 websites for me and currentlys hosts both, the forums are ALWAYS my first port of call. Very occasionally I may have asked Jo about a specific issue to do with the re-design (a "is this template standard or very modified" question) but I'd never dream of emailing her for standard support!

Like Sonia, I am a mum working from home but I do have the "luxury" of 4 years Actinic experience under my belt and I like to think that I have grasped the basics with some additional knowledge acquired along the way!
Money for development is very tight but over the years I've learnt to prioritise and I do have Actinic cover now. I don't use it for "support", I use forums for that. I use Actinic cover for "oh my god my site is dying/dead" scenarios! and on the firts occasiona alone it was worth the cost!

I'm reluctant to fiddle unless I know fully what I'm doing though. Templates can be fickle things! I've had templates modified for me by Actinic support themselves that have not done what they should have so what chance do I, a mere mortal, have?!

I'm happy to "give it a go" though, I just back up a lot
I think a monthly fee for verying levels of support is a good idea but you can get that from Actinic for £25 a month (for catalogue)!

I guess a halfway option might be a thought. £10 a month for "you ought to know it but don't yet" type of support? Trouble is, there will be folk who then use this as an excuse to call/email you at every opportunity just coz they're paying you!

Personally, I think developers have enough to do without offering support when it is so readily available here.
Granted some people (referring to Sonia's thread again) may feel daunted by the forums (I used to... not any more) and feel reluctant to post what may seem a simple thing but I've NEVER encountered any negative reactions to a genuine call for help.

Only time people get peeved is if you
a) don't bother trying to sort it out yourself first (if, indeed, it's that kind of post) or
b) you post in every forum with the same post!!

Generally, I think the status quo works... forums for the basic, every day (or otherwise) stuff and, when it all goes tits up (pardon the phrase) Actinic support (with cover or otherwise)

Maybe an inital support period from delevopers/hosts? 60 days as someone else suggested seems fair (30 days, for people with lives outside Actinic, is not a long time!)

Am I making sense? Probably not..just wanted to give my 2ps worth...as an end user
Tracey

[chris ashdown]

Here's an example- 2 months after release...
the classic why doesn't my site rank highly in SEs,
the answer to that is, well you didn't have the budget to ask me to do that.
Oh but I thought it was included, I think you are ripping me off because wyou want more money from me, I'm going somewhere else.


If it's classic why did you not clarify it at the start of contract?, you are the expert the purchaser is always looking to save money but will mainly listen to the expert if their knowledge is put forward

[pinbrook]

Maybe classic is the wrong word to use - it was just the most recent example.

I am not happy with writing a quote full of exclusions, I prefer to write all our quotes with a comprehensive list of what is included.

It is clearer to be able to point to a list of what is in the quote, then you can be sure that everything else is excluded. If you have a list of inclusions and exclusions what happens if a point arises that isn't cover by either.

Anyway to me the upshot of this thread is that there isn't a right way and there isn't a wrong way, every developer is different every client is different and has different expectations.

[jont]

Offering a list of exclusions is impractical as Jo says. This could be overcome offering the Bronze, Silver & Gold etc packages and maybe providing a matrix to show a side by side comparison of what is included for the money.

[Miranda Stamp]

Oh I hope you're not refering to me!

I must confess to being the an ex-affluent time poor website owner who thinks hmmm so-and-so will know the answer, and is more than happy to subscribe to any cover at a reasonable price for anything if it will get me instant help on a phone call/email. I am not one for reading manuals (too impatient and time poor) but do read fora and a fair old bit soaks in (I can no longer put it down to a fluke, but I am doing rather well if you google nappies, cloth nappies, real nappies etc, so must have picked something up along the lines over the past 6 years!)

I am a great believer in what comes around goes around, so I'm more than happy to give advice if I know the answer but not being a teccy person I'm stuck on all bar the ecommerce issues really, and to recommend if I think a service is worth it (Mrs H being a recommended case in point: customer of mine, now Actinic user and customer of Pinbrook & Mole End, all who have provided me with a fab service).

However Jo, I think there are people out there who will be more than happy to cough up for a hand-holding service, why not offer a Platignum level which incorporates so many minutes/month with extra at £££vast sum/minute, which could be set at an off-putting level to avoid taking too much time without good reward for you? I'm sure in my more time poor cash rich days I'd have gone for it and probably not used it a great deal. I think I've only used Actinic Cover about 4 or 5 times in almost 6 years, so very lucrative for them.

Mind you I've not renewed my Sage Cover I think that's a bit of a rip-off rate!

[Fairyglass]

I'm an end user, with around 18 month's experience of running a web-only business. It's not my main job, but I hope oneday it will be.

I bought Actinic as it seemed to offer an easy way in to the e-commerce environment for someone with no knowledge at all of html, perl, etc. I couldn't (and still can't) afford to pay a developer to put together a site for me, and I have to say I wouldn't want to anyway- if it's my business, then I want to be able to control it my way, up to a point.

I've looked upon the time spent as an investment for the future- the learning is a necessary process in building a successful enterprise. As the business builds, and funds increase, then I'll be more happy speaking directly with a professional developer about design work, and I expect to pay properly for this service.

Jo's example of a client complaining about SEO winds me up I'm afraid- I firmly believe that if you're setting up a business enterprise then you need to do your research first, and this entails understanding what your route to market consists of. I understood clearly that website development and SEO were two completely different things before I launched my site. However I'm sure that this example could have been resolved by a clearer contract between developer and client.

In my main job, I sell technical products to specialist retailers, and I expect the retailers to have a similar (or better) technical knowledge of the products than me- it's the only way an end customer can make an informed choice. The most successful retailers tend to be those that embrace the customer and provide more than just a product- the customer feels as if he/she has got a quality of service beyond their expectation, whether it be quick delivery, extra information, a discount on future purchases, or just a follow-up mail to check everything's well.

There should be no reason why this can't translate into web design- the gold/silver/bronze suggestion seems like the way forward. But more information is also good- offering the customer add-on modules for SEO, e-marketing, trademarking, competitor analysis, etc, would allow the client to feel in control of what the money is being spent on rather than a possibly vague "I'll build you a website". (Jo- I'm not saying this is what you do!)

I realise this entails a lot more manpower and expertise than most web design companies can offer, but a collaboration between specialists would be a great help for the end consumer. As part of this, there would naturally be a series of options for specialist support, on a scale of charges.

In the meantime, this forum is superb and I would have thought it should be available as an integrated link from the "help" menu on every copy of Actinic. I'd love to see a barter system working here- I'd feel a lot happier giving something back to the regulars who spend far longer than they should helping people like me. Thanks, everyone.