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**SusanF** · 01-Sep-2005, 10:24 PM

Hi Jo,

You pose some very interesting questions, most of which do not actually deal only with e-commerce, but with most computing projects in general. Unfortunately the questions are not new and I don�t think there are any easy answers to be found. I�ve worked in computing in a number of capacities over the years (too many years now that I think of it!). I�ve been a programmer and analyst � very much in the �computer people� camp; a business analyst (stuck between IT and the user departments); and now a very small-scale developer of Actinic e-commerce solutions (back on the IT side). I also work in several schools as an IT support technician and worst of all, am sole IT support for a very luddite husband who is a senior general manager and hates computers (and hopefully will never see this!). Throughout all of these positions one thing hits you time and time again � you are either into computers (in which case you will at least try to work out how things are done) or you�re not (and basically don�t give a toss about how they work � back to my husband).

When working as a business analyst, the position was, for the only time in my career, outside the IT department. Part of the job was liaison between business departments and IT. It was quite upsetting to find how much ill-feeling there was towards IT from other departments. IT is seen as being very inward looking, with little regard to the 'real' business of the company. Having spoken to business analysts in other companies this seems to be part of a general (I'd say mostly unfair) view of IT.

One element that does seem to cause resentment is the insistence that users understand, at least to some degree, the tools used by those working in IT. A while ago (okay, ages ago), I worked in a company that used SSADM (Structured Systems Analysis and Design Method). This meant that the customers had to sign off reams of paperwork including Entity-Relationship diagrams, most of which they did not understand, but more to the point, had no wish to learn about. As an analyst (or consultant or developer) I think it's important to realise that the job includes understanding, to some degree, the business that is involved in a particular project, but not taking for granted that in return, the user will be happy to learn part of your job.

As a bit of an aside, I recently read the book 'The Inmates Are Running The Asylum' by Alan Cooper. It's about interaction design and looks at why most people find technology difficult, frustrating and even frightening. (How many people do you know who still can't get their video recorder to do more than the very basic functions ?).

Anyway, one of the interesting concepts he (only half jokingly) puts forward, is the idea that 'computer people' are a slightly different species from everyone else - Homo logicus rather than Homo sapiens! Basically he's trying to say that we think in a slightly different way to others. A quote from the book:

'Most people cannot understand the degree to which computers fascinate programmers. The difficulties of learning about computers only strengthen the programmer's sense of satisfaction. Their interest runs so deep that it never occurs to them that others might not feel the same way, so they interpret other's frustration as stemming from inability rather than from disinterest.'

In the book, there's a very simple test to determine which species you belong to! Simply imagine you're about to board an airliner. As you step onto the aircraft the steward(ess) asks you if you'd like to go left into the cockpit, or right into the cabin.

'To the left, the cockpit is a kaleidoscope of complex controls and gauges, with every surface covered in instruments, knobs and levers. To the right, in stark contrast, lies the cabin, where everything is gently rounded, smooth and a calm-inducing shade of beige.

To turn left into the cockpit means that you must learn and master all the complicated technical stuff. You must know what every one of those instruments means. In exchange for understanding all that complexity, is the certain knowledge that you are in control, and that you are responsible for landing the aircraft at the right place.

To turn right into the cabin means that you relinquish all authority over the flight. In exchange for that abdication of control you get to relax, knowing that you will arrive at the proper destination without dealing with anything more complex than turning the reading light on and off.

The test neatly divides the human race into two categories: those who turn left strongly desire to be in control and to understand how the technology works, while those who turn right strongly desire to simplify their thinking and to have confidence in the success of the flight. Programmers - Homo logicus - always want to turn left. Users - Homo sapiens - always want to turn right.'

It's an interesting book, and even if you don't agree with all the arguments, it'll definitely make you think slightly differently about your customers. This probably isn�t what you really want to hear, as I don�t have any answers and it doesn�t make your life easier, but sometimes it is a real revelation that others are just really not interested in the technical aspects of the machinery that runs their business (even in e-commerce where it is so important to that business) and just have no desire to be responsible for their IT requirements. All I think you can do is make it very clear from the outset (in layman�s language) what you are, and are not willing to include in your development package.

As for the test above, yes, I�m afraid I'd be in the cockpit quicker than you can say entity-relationship diagram. How about the rest of you ?

Regards,

Susan.

**SusanF** · 01-Sep-2005, 10:26 PM

Sorry - got a bit carried away there

Susan

**pinbrook** · 01-Sep-2005, 10:40 PM

I am afraid that I would head for the cabin!! So what does that say about me. I think it says I am happy to be flown, but if I had to fly the plane I wouldn't even consider going.

It has to be said I agree with everything you say. I grew up as a cobol programmer, progressed to C, gave up, and then returned as an IT manager, before setting up pinbrook. The thing that was said to me over and over again in my role as IT manager was that I was the most unlikely IT manager they'd ever had. By this they meant they could talk to me, I could explain things in their speak - basically I wasn't a geek!!

So how do we marry up the needs of developers and users?

**wjcampbe** · 01-Sep-2005, 11:39 PM

Susan, I like the story.

I am not an IT professional, but have filled IT roles as a sideline when working on Construction projects. This includes writing dBASE inventory programs in Kuwait and Kazakstan, installing and maintaining telephone, satellite TV, VSAT data connections and DEC networks in the Algerian desert, installing and maintaining my 5 PC home network and I'm currently installing a 75 node network in my local school.

The other hobby I was able to enjoy as part of my work role in Algeria was flying. We had a couple of Twin Otter aircraft, and I spent as much time as possible in the driver's seat when travelling between different work locations. So if we are ever on the same plane, it will be a toss up to see who sits on who's knee.

I have talked people through a PC procedure on the telephone while I sat in Heathrow Airport and they were several thousand miles away in front of the PC, so I can sympathise with Jo on the intrusiveness of support queries, but like you I have no solutions.

Unless - would anyone be interested in outsourcing support services?

**pinbrook** · 01-Sep-2005, 11:58 PM

would anyone be interested in outsourcing support services?

this is what actinic cover does - but clients prefer to call the developer than pay �200.

**wjcampbe** · 02-Sep-2005, 12:14 AM

but clients prefer to call the developer than pay �200

Hmm, yes - I know that one too, I've even had ex-employers call me looking for historical project data. (You worked for us once, we bought and paid for you then?).

Perhaps that is the answer, to introduce an ongoing support clause to your development contract that sets out a fee of �15.00 per call after the site goes live, and to enforce the clause rigorously. Some people will still call you, but at least you will be paid for your time.

**SusanF** · 02-Sep-2005, 08:22 AM

Bill, that sounds like a good idea. And businesses are used to this concept in other areas. For instance accountants will be happy to answer any of your questions over the telephone, but you know that eventually you will get billed for their time in doing this. You are just not going to get away from the fact that many people will not try to sort things out for themselves when a PC is involved, both through lack of knowledge and a lack of any wish to get involved in this way. Clearly defining on-going support call costs as Bill suggests may help you a little Jo. If they are pitched at the right price, customers will think twice about asking for help with minor problems that with a little time and effort they could solve themselves, but will also know that you are there and ready to help when there really is a need (and you willl actually be getting paid for it too).

Susan

**jont** · 02-Sep-2005, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by pinbrook

Its the same throughout the whole question of using computers, no-one would dream of driving a car without taking a driving lesson, but no-one wants to take time for training to allow themselves and their staff to properly utilise the very powerful piece of machinery on their desk.

I like the analagy which taking it further with Actinic software is akin to having to take a mechanics course so you know how the actual car works rather than just driving it. Most of my clients can drive the car and even go so far as adding in petrol and topping up the water - probably the same as adding in a new product or changing the terms and conditions.

If the car breaks down or they want a new engine (template changes and .pl hacks) they prefer to trust a professional mechanic and get the job done right, on time and with minimum heartache. They are not mechanics / programmers but have their own areas of expertise and a business to run.

What is annoying is some levels of apathy and the inability to bother to think. I have run out of petrol can you come and put some in for me as I bought the car from you in the first place and all I do is drive it along.

From a developers viewpoint I have long since realised clients are totally different people and I now try and consider that into the web design and support I offer.

I have a current job which is only a few pages but the client wants her husband to be able to change a few things on a very ad-hoc basis - a CSS design is perfect but this can lead to all levels of problems as they have zero knowledge of HTML let alone CSS integration - so a very simple table layout is being used so they can easily see what goes where and they can click and replace text accordingly. I am also setting up a dummy page with a special offer feature - all this means is renaming the dummy page to the actual page and the feature page will appear - with no extra input from the client. This is a pain to do but I know from experience this will save me endless phone calls asking how to change a bit of text or add in an image - I am future proofing myself.

Charging for support has always been my downfall - I don't mind a few tweaks or alterations as freebies but some take the mickey and almost request a full re-design thinking it is as simple as a click of a button!

Clients - you just have to love em

**delboy** · 03-Sep-2005, 09:03 AM

The problem with the computer and consumer electronics industries (with digital technology being ever more pervasive) is PERCEPTION.

It is the value that people place on support whether that be for changes to correct bugs, misunderstandings about requirements (caused by lack of specification) or perhaps updates. The theme being "it will only take you minutes to do" with the underlying tone being "so why should I pay?"

Susan's comment about video recorders and how many people can program them is a good case in point. The grandchildren turn up and within seconds they've programmed the recorder so the PERCEPTION is that it cannot be difficult (and therefore not worth paying someone else to show them how to do it).

It's the same with computing. Someone who knows what they are doing can fairly quickly correct a web page problem because they call on their knowledge and experience to do so. The fact that it's taken them a long time to gain their IT knowledge and experience is the thing that's greatly undervalued. Strange, if we go to a dentist, accountant or solicitor do we expect a freebie?

Jont's car analysis is also a good one. These days garages rigorously enforce their charges for just about anything you ask them to do on your car no matter how simple! This regimental charging discipline has spread through the garage world so much so that I would now never expect a freebie job done on my car (unless a warranty problem). One of the big benefits to us all and one of the BIG influences of PERCEPTION (in the IT industry), is the Internet.

How many times have we managed to download a free software tool off the Internet (that has saved us a lot of time and effort) or what about the millions who get free advice off sites worldwide? The PERCEPTION being that in the computing world you can get things for free. So why should I pay you?

The big problem is where do you draw the line? Most people want service and support when they buy something BUT, the majority of people will not pay extra for that support. It's a difficult matter, but to survive a business must be commercial and strike the balance between goodwill and the need to cover its' costs. If we don't even attempt to charge for support then we undervalue our skills and add to the Internet PERCEPTION.

As Jonty says, "Clients - you just have to love em" and I would add, "but politely and firmly tell them where to get off when they push too far"

Delboy

**wjcampbe** · 03-Sep-2005, 10:21 AM

I suggested a charge per call as a possible solution to the issue of 'free lifetime support', now I would like to throw a large feline into the dovecot.

This forum is a form of free support. If developers adopt the ongoing service charge business model, how long before their perception of this community changes, and the self-help user community become "Those guys (and gals) who are taking the bread from our mouths" - will it happen?

Currently several developers offer free advice here to hands-on users, but the amount of advice and which threads they respond to is their own choice. It would be a shame to see that support diminish.

I still see a support fee as the best way forward, and this forum as a choice available to the client. Visit the forum, hope the right solution is quickly forthcoming for free, or call the developer knowing that s/he (the client) will have to pay to get the correct solution.

The downside for the developer is that support in return for a fee involves a contractual responsibility, free advice outside of a contractual relationship does not attach the same element of risk.

It is unfortunate for the purpose of this thread, that the majority of users who need the support are unlikely to browse the site and see this discussion. There may be some who lurk out of curiosity, but most will only come when they have a problem, post their problem, grab the solution and leave till next time. Could a couple of you directly invite some of your clients who are not forum regulars to contribute.

**jont** · 03-Sep-2005, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by delboy

How many times have we managed to download a free software tool off the Internet (that has saved us a lot of time and effort) or what about the millions who get free advice off sites worldwide? The PERCEPTION being that in the computing world you can get things for free. So why should I pay you?

Thats a very good point. The beauty of the internet is the vast amount of information out there and a small community prepared to create things and donate knowledge for free. I am self taught with computers arriving in schools about 3 years after I left - but I have the ability to read up on a subject and most of it makes sense with a little trial and error. I do respect donationware such as Normans excellent site and donate accordingly. Getting free advice is one thing - being able to implement it to suit your needs is another - but people often don't realise that as you say.

Originally posted by wjcambe

I still see a support fee as the best way forward, and this forum as a choice available to the client. Visit the forum, hope the right solution is quickly forthcoming for free, or call the developer knowing that s/he (the client) will have to pay to get the correct solution.

I agree and this takes delboys point to the next stage. A little like legal advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau - great for a lot of main stream questions and queries but not if you have committed a murder - for that level of support you approach a barrister.

There are a number of regular contributors (other than the Actinic staff) on here who are prepared to offer excellent advice and technical assistance to users who as Bill says only stop on by when they have an issue. In a totally commercial world all this advice would be chargeable and indeed there are sites selling product template etc which have been covered on here.

The level of free software support in general is totally beyond what any other service or market sector provides. I have phoned Norton and Microsoft on a weekend to sort major problems and they have talked me through the steps over the phone - and at a free phone rate also! How many solicitors would do that? Actinic staff frequent these boards daily to help support their product and help customers - this is expensive and time consuming but is "expected" and does help future sales of their products.

Striking the right balance between free support and paid for support does indeed need sorting out before any works are started so both parties know where they stand.

**Spark** · 03-Sep-2005, 12:16 PM

I know this posting is way too long and am sorry about that already - not even too sure if mine is the sort of reply you want. As a mum at home resources to set up a business (which includes but is not limited to online retail) are limited. I opted for Actinic because it's marketed as an affordable, easy to use, off-the-shelf product and I know that at this stage (until everything takes off and starts generating some income) I can't afford the luxury of a developer.

I think that when non-computer people pay a developer to build a site for them it's not because they lack interest, it's because they lack time and knowledge so would rather pay to have it all sorted out. Its kind of the same as buying a new car. If you buy a new car you expect it to work � you wouldn't for one minute think that you were going to have to spend weekends with your head under the bonnet trying to get it to do things that you were under the impression it did automatically. On the other hand � if you didn't have a driving license, you wouldn't expect the car dealer to give you driving lessons for free until you passed your test. Perhaps it would be better for all concerned if the product wasn't sold on the basis of its ease of use but gave slightly more realistic expectations.

I have no programming experience whatsoever and although comfortable (within my perceived limits) trying to sort out minor computer problems as they occur, sometimes get a little nervous of delving too deeply into the bits that I really just don't understand at all. From my point of view, there is a great fear of causing irrevocable damage, not knowing how I've done it and not being able to fix it. (You'll note from an earlier posting that I managed to totally lock myself out of Actinic the other day � thanks again to Kev for sorting me out).

I joined the forum a short while ago when I realised that the product has a lot more scope than I'm able to make use of and it's been a fantastic resource. The trouble is (as I'm starting to realise) that to make use of the product and of the forum, you really do need some programming knowledge or a "fingers crossed and hope for the best" outlook. The forum is quite daunting for people like me though � I don't understand the majority of postings and feel quite stupid asking questions that I perhaps should already know the answers to. Can't really contribute anything either because I don't know enough. The site does feel more like a developer to developer site and Bill's right � unless there is a problem or unless you're a developer working with the product regularly, the lack of ability to contribute would keep most people at bay. Again � going back to the car � if it's working fine and not due a service, how often do you refer to the user manual?

Sorry again for going on for way too long!

**jont** · 03-Sep-2005, 12:24 PM

Good post Sonia

**wjcampbe** · 03-Sep-2005, 01:08 PM

not even too sure if mine is the sort of reply you want

As jont said, your is a good post and is exactly what is needed. You have acknowledged a need and a willingness to learn, and helped us all understand the frame of mind of a relatively unskilled newcomer to the product.

The secret to learning Actinic, just like most computer related things is to make a copy of what you know is working and put that in a safe place before you change anything.

You should export your network settings and security settings to a text document and keep several printed copies in more than one place. If you read this week's thread about losing 3 computers in a fire - you will understand the value of having a paper copy and a CD or DVD copy of all your site details somewhere outside the office (perhaps a locked cashbox stored with a relative).

Have you invested in Actinic Cover? If not, what level of support would you expect your developer to have included in the design and installation charges, and what would you expect to be asked to pay for?

The answers to these questions will help the developers on this forum provide more appropriate services and support.

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