Bens post

[Darren B]

Even now when I'm looking for a particular post I can have difficulties finding it - I know it's there, but I'll be damned if I can find it. Both new members and established members are singing from the same hymn sheet.

Perhaps if actinic moderated the posts to the extent of changing the title to something that gave a clue to as to the post, then people could find stuff in the searches.

Instead of wasting time moderating peoples responses, but hey ho its their ball and if they are going to take it home then so be it.

The weekend is around the corner and maybe i will see things differently on monday and this thread will be dead and i wont get emails i feel compelled to answer.

[Rich Brady]

its their ball and if they are going to take it home then so be it.

PMSL I bloody love that expression Darren, you've just made my day.

[chris ashdown]

Piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiist

I put a pin in it and all the hot air goes (for tracey) out

Have a good weekend folks and hope to see you all back on Monday, and I do hope it's all

[HowardW]

Hi
I have been a member of this forum for several years.
I have taken the stick for naive questions and enjoyed the support of more knowledgeable people than me.
I have contributed where I can, but...
... to me, this forum is the number one to visit each day
Silly things, I have done are corrected by a search on the forum.
The addition of humour and banter just makes the experience more enjoyable.
Unlike other forums.
Given the time and patience of the major contributors, I wonder why Ben had to put up that post.
Given the wealth of information here, I would have thought that Actinic would be falling over themselves to include the valuable information in both the Knowledge Base and the AUG.
Why cannot it carry on as usual?
Regards
Howard

[cbarling]

I think that there are a few points to make here.

I agree about trying to get thread descriptions more helpful so that search yields better results. You may have noticed that we have been editing a few subject lines recently. You will see more of that in the future.

There was no suggestion in Ben’s post that humour or banter was effected, I’m not sure where that idea came from.

Many people are robust and able to take strongly worded criticsm. Others become very upset. We’re all weak in some areas and strong in others and we we need to take that into account. As Ben said, we’ve been told by a number of people that they don’t participate due to the tone of the community. I’ve also seen people inside Actinic *really* upset. You won’t see these people explaining themselves here for the very reasons we’re trying to tackle.

There is no suggestion that someone who only ever takes from the community can’t be criticised. Ben’s post explicitly says “The idea isn't to suppress opinions, critcisms of Actinic, or disagreements. It's just to ensure that this is done in a courteous way”.

The statement that rudeness isn’t allowed on the community has always been there. We actually posted to one thread that was heading in the wrong direction from this point of view, to be completely ignored. It’s for this reason we’ve decided to become a bit more robust about it.

Chris

[grantglendinnin]

It may well be worth noting that I was told a few years ago that without confrontation, nothing ever gets done. I've found this to be the case with Actinic, particularly in the support field.

This isn't being rude, nor obscene, just 100% completely honest.

[pinbrook]

Many people are robust and able to take strongly worded criticsm. Others become very upset. We’re all weak in some areas and strong in others and we we need to take that into account. As Ben said, we’ve been told by a number of people that they don’t participate due to the tone of the community. I’ve also seen people inside Actinic *really* upset. You won’t see these people explaining themselves here for the very reasons we’re trying to tackle.

In my view you will never manage to make everyone happy all the time, there will always people who will not use the community for any reason, these people will have to be nurtured by actinic themselves.

There are always going to be people who will post and post silly questions, sometimes these people will get blasted.

But there is little reason for people in the first group to think they will always get treated in the same manner as people in the 2nd group.

Its up to Actinic to decide what this community is for. As much as it is not supposed to be a secondary support mechanism - it is and always will be - due to some people not buying cover and others simply assuming it is.

But one thing it can not be is everything to everyone all of the time.

Lets think about majorities here and try to keep most people happy most of the time.

[cbarling]

Absolutely Jo, it's never possible to have things perfect for everyone.

As you know, there's been an Actinic community going for around ten years. Over that time, the tone has varied. We're currently just trying to tilt it back towards the friendly. IMO, it's gone too far in the "robust" direction in recent times.

There will always be disagreements, and that's fine. As stated, we just want the tone to be civil.

Chris

[bamboo]

For what its worth...
This is a forum. It's not quite a public one but the barrier to entry is low with simply a name and e-mail address getting you a podium or a seat whichever is your particular bag.

The best part about it is that unlike every other forum I've been on it has been expertly moderated. Threads have been allowed to play out in the main and guess what most come to a natural end which is as it should be.

It has a unique blend of designers, retailers, people pretending to be designers, people pretending to be retailers, a whole host of bodgers and an active involvement from people within Actinic who have sufficient clout to get answers from the techies within Actinic.
Naturally this sort of openness will attract trolls and spammers but they are in the minority and are often quietly dealt with by moderation or outed by seasoned forum users.

It strikes me that those that have the least to contribute are the first to complain when they see a situation that they don't like. I have been on the receiving end of criticism and on the receiving end of generous free assistance from those very same people and am still almost sane, despite the efforts of the quirks in this software to send me the other way

I have been trying to give something back to this group of wonderful people by passing on some of the knowledge I have acquired and by trying to stimulate people to think outside their respective boxes and learn for themselves. People are free to call me an idiot, agree or disagree in private or in public because there is always more than one way to skin a cat but what is the point in complaining to the masters of this universe?

That is the bit in all of this I cannot get my head round. Why people are so offended by the opinions of others that they will likely never know or get to meet, or even in most cases, know what they look like who may or may not have more intelligence or common sense than they have that they then go on to whinge that this forum isn't the nicest place and they are scared of the replies they might get if they step up to the podium.
Well Actinic support is free by e-mail and is anonymous and 'nice' to deal with so why don't they go there instead?

At the end of the day this forum is owned and maintained by the Towers and is probably the best marketing tool in their arsenal. So when they get complaints from people who are afraid of the response they may get on here they feel they have to act and indeed they do but instead of quietly educating the complainer that this place is one where they will learn a great deal about all manner of things and encouraging them that it isn't as bad as it first appears to be they decided otherwise which is achoice they are of course free to make.

In my opinion that decision has already robbed this place of key people who obviously don't like the nanny state approach and will no doubt claim others as they become less inclined to share their knowledge for free and begin to move into the background in case their replies are 'censored'.
To stay, go, lurk or be active, contribute or take are choices for the individual to make.

I will go back to lurking and asking questions when I cannot find the answer by reading. I enjoyed giving things back by contributing on any thread I felt able to in recent months to but I cannot stand the Jeremiahs and naysayers who complain to the teacher, as it were, simply because the playground is populated by REAL people.

[plantshop]

Ive lurked on this forum for several years and been helped many many times by the posts on here and directly contacting members. I feel I have to post to say how disappointed I was with Bens post, here we are a week on and nothing has changed.

People are still being insulted, rude posts and today I notice that a member who asked for a review was upset so much they took the link to thier site down only for it to be put back up by another member. ALL actions that Ben said he would stamp out

So the result of Bens actions are that we have lost several of the longstanding members who helped people every day both on and off forum and Actinic have ruined this forum IMO. I dont see any of those people that were complaining to Ben posting or helping people like me who run V7 that Actinic no longer support.

I was considering upgrading to V9 and getting one of the designers on here to help but Im seriously considering if this is my best option and should I be looking at another ecommerce software. This forum was Actinics best feature but things have changed

[cbarling]

Hi Eric. Did you report any of these posts?

(Red triangle with an exclamation mark icon to the above right of each post).

Chris

[guccij]

rude posts

Sometimes, when people ask for help, the response they get is determined by how they post, and how they respond to criticism. Being abusive to long-standing members is not, imo, a good way to behave.

[Mike Hughes]

I'd just like to make some observations here:

1. There's clearly issues over who or what the Actinic Community is. To some people it might just be an Actinic hosted source of information, but for many of us it's part of our lives where we come and discuss stuff with like-minded friends and colleagues. To me the community is the people who contribute to it and if you're not part of it, but want the community's help, then you should recognise that and act respectfully.

2. I do think Ben may have mis-judged his comments a bit. Not many people on the forum have had much in the way of dealings with him and for a relative newcomer to come to the community and say "this is how things are going to be" is actually pretty rude in itself.

3. I have noticed a tendency for newcomers who act disrepectfully to a community member to get savaged. I don't particularly like this aspect, but I can see why it happens. Our friends and colleagues are important to us and we will stand up and defend them from abuse. This only happens fairly rarely though and is usually when people take umbrage to something that's been said about their work. It would probably help though if community members remembered that people sometimes feel the same way about their website as we do about our friends on the community. There's often a nice way of saying the same thing that won't make people feel we're being disrespectful to them.

4. I would like see some greater tolerance of newcomers who make mistakes, but I would also like to see better and clearer rules about respecting the community. We've often talked about what the community is about and who it's for and yet I'm not sure much gets done in the end to reflect that.

Mike

[grantglendinnin]

Hi Eric. Did you report any of these posts?

(Red triangle with an exclamation mark icon to the above right of each post).

Chris

Chris,

It may well be worth noting that nothing is done when posts are reported using the 'Report' icon. I reported a post by a new member a few months ago which was nothing short of shear ignorance and racism - a month later the post was still there, I'm pretty sure if I looked I'd stumble upon it again.

I am still enrolled as an Administrator on a busy forum and when posts are reported we as admins/moderators take the appropriate action. 3 strikes and your out style. It's as effective as you can get with a public forum, something Actinic lacks in leaps and bounds.

If they can't learn to be civil, they'll have to learn how to live in exile.

Actinic customers/developers are using the forum as free support tool. That's as fair as it can get considering it's a self-perpetuating wheel powered (mostly) by the people for the people.

Please get it sorted.

[guccij]

The trouble is, everything's going the American way where touchy feely insincerity is the order of the day. Everyone expects to be told they're brilliant, their work is brilliant, their kids are brilliant.
Just like the dumbing down of exam results (evolution, it would appear, has suddenly speeded up to the extent that every child is a genius), there is a dumbing down in what people say because they're terrified of upsetting someone.
People have to be allowed to express an opinion when it's been specifically requested. To give bland, "you're doing fine but why don't you just consider, er, maybe, hope you don't mind me saying this, but your colours could do with some more thought" responses helps no-one. It's asinine, meaningless, confusing and completely defeats the point of a community such as this.
My view, and I don't care frankly who disagrees with it, is that if you come on here shouting the odds, then you should be prepared to take the flak in return.
If you don't like it, then the door is that way >>>>>>>>>>>>